Aging and oxidation

[BoisBlancBoy]

Ok I have been doing a lot of reading more on the scientific side of aging. I was curious as to what compounds and other things that give the product it's taste and smoothness. A lot of what I have read is over my head but still enjoy reading it. But I have a question that I hope maybe someone can answer. From what I have read is that within a oak barrel the oxidation is one factor that break down the chains of congeners, good and bad flavors. The good tasting congeners are much more stable and don't break down as fast as the bad. Now if I understand this correctly this is what helps the aged product taste smoother, along with the flavors from the barrel that help mask/hide the less desirable tastes.

So my question is after a barrel has been used a few time and doesn't impart much flavor anymore will it still help in the aging process to a degree because of oxidation alone?

[S-Cackalacky]

I would say yes. Haven't done it myself, but some here actually age their white dog in glass - just give it a shake once in a while and open it to the air. I usually take my oaked whiskey off the wood and age in glass for a couple of months using the shake and air method. It definitely smooths out and improves the flavor.

[bearriver]

Odin and Bushman both own and use SS sonic cleaners. I'd bet my bottom dollar that one of those units rapidly accelerates the oxidization process.

[BoisBlancBoy]

I'm not too concerned with the speed of the oxidation, I have plenty of time to just let stuff sit.

The reason I asked that question is because this is what I'm planning, not sure if it's a waste of time or not: Once a barrel is for a lack of a better term "expired" I'll use it to store whatever I age in them. The product in the fresh barrels will be aged to a taste or desired length of time them transfer them to the expired barrels. Where they will either set untouched for another length of time. I'm hoping my logic and what I have read I understood well enough that it will do some good and make sense.

[bellybuster]

theres someone on here that adds charred oak to an "expired " barrel for the same effect as a charred barrel

[S-Cackalacky]

BBB, there's a distillery here in VA that ages in used barrels. They cut a sort of trap door in the top and put toasted/charred oak, applewood, and/or cherry in with the spirits. They age it this way with the barrels sitting vertical for one(?) year and then transfer it to a regular horizontal barrel (used) to continue aging it off the wood for additional time. They used to have something about this on their website, but not sure it's still on there - http://www.copperfox.biz/history/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow .

Posted while bellybuster was posting.

[Halfbaked]

I think belly is talking about Jimbo. I think there are a few others but can't remember name. You could store in the barrel and then change to glass with a dif wood for a more complex drop. I read a thread a long time ago where a person used a stainless steel air stone to accelerate and age your likker. He swore by it. I have also read where some take the head out and rechar the barrel. I think it would light real easy and maybe singe your eyebrows if you don't pay attention. No barrels or no SS air stone at my house so I don't have a dog in the fight just hear say. I am more on the line of SC but can't say that is the way I would rather be if money and space were no object.

posting when SC posting

[bearriver]

Glenmorangie transfers some of their whiskeys through different types of barrels. My scotch guy is an avid fan of that brand, for that reason.

[Jimbo]

Yes your logic is good (aging in new then transferring to old barrel to continue the oxidation).

And yes I add new wood to old barrels. Then just use/treat them again as a new barrel, oak from the new wood in there, oxidation from the barrel. I cut a bigger bunghole that fits my 1x1x5 sticks I use in quart jars and use large corks to seal. If I transfer from quarts to barrel I dump it all in, incl the wood. If the barrel is empty when I need it, I just add more wood, 3-4 sticks per gallon.

Edit: Bearriver, yes that works great, soak some sticks in sherry, drop em in the barrel. I do that too. And apple brandy too (soaked sticks for whiskey)

[MDH]

John Hall and Jim Swan are two industry guys who know a lot about barrelling technique... Might not do too badly contacting them, though they are consultants, so I'm not sure what they'd be willing to say for free. I'm no big fan of Forty Creek Whisky, but I have to admit, I'd like to say, combine their barreling technique with, say, Kilchoman's fermentation and distillation style .
For the record oxygenation is indeed part of the equation, but it's not the full one. There are a lot of different reactions that occur from the breakdown of more complex molecules, especially those from the oak, over time, and also from the formation of esters etc. over time.

[BoisBlancBoy]

Awesome loving seeing all this traffic and information. Keep it coming!

I realize that the oxidation is only one part of the equation just wanted to make sure at the start of the thread I didn't muddy the water.

I also am not opposed to adding oak sticks to a used barrel. But if I have product that is done aging or is to my taste and have a expired barrel I'll use it to store it. In my opinion there is no sense in having a dry barrel.

[rtalbigr]

I have been adding oak sticks to my barrels for a long time. I have taken barrels apart and refurbished, but it's a real pain in the ass. Just adding some toasted/charred sticks is a lot easier and very effective for aging.

Big R

[BoisBlancBoy]

Yeah from everything I've seen and read reconditioning a barrel is more work than it's worth and I personally have no interest in doing that.

[Halfbaked]

Personally I would love to take an old barrel apart and put it back together. Maybe not a 53 gal one to start but it might be easier. Honestly I would say there are some tricks to be learned on how to do it. JMO but I don't see why an older used barrel would not be better than a new one or just as good. It would be fired with whiskey in it. Any thoughts? (Sorry not trying to hijack thread)

[Bull Rider]

I use five gallon stainless steel Corney kegs. They have a large opening on the top, and I just add my young product with an appropriate amount of charred on one side and toasted on the other oak.

When done, I pour off the finished product into another fresh Corney keg, pull out the old oak chunks and use them later for smoke cooking.

The Corney kegs are sanitary and provide for a controlled aging process where I don't have to guess how fresh the barrel is or isn't. They don't leak either.

I also use the Corney kegs for kegging up home brewed beer.

Works for me.

[rtalbigr]

Personally I would love to take an old barrel apart and put it back together. Maybe not a 53 gal one to start but it might be easier. Honestly I would say there are some tricks to be learned on how to do it. JMO but I don't see why an older used barrel would not be better than a new one or just as good. It would be fired with whiskey in it. Any thoughts? (Sorry not trying to hijack thread)

Most important it to make sure the barrel is completely dry, if not the heads will warp and make it impossible to re-assemble. I number the staves and mark for position with the heads. I use a sharp hand ax and scrape down to new wood. The curve of the ax blade fits the curve of the staves.

Big R

[Halfbaked]

I told you there were some tricks to it. I guess the best trick is to know someone that already knows how to do it. Thanks Big R!

Personally I would love to take an old barrel apart and put it back together. Maybe not a 53 gal one to start but it might be easier. Honestly I would say there are some tricks to be learned on how to do it. JMO but I don't see why an older used barrel would not be better than a new one or just as good. It would be fired with whiskey in it. Any thoughts? (Sorry not trying to hijack thread)

Most important it to make sure the barrel is completely dry, if not the heads will warp and make it impossible to re-assemble. I number the staves and mark for position with the heads. I use a sharp hand ax and scrape down to new wood. The curve of the ax blade fits the curve of the staves.

Big R

[BoisBlancBoy]

This might be an article everyone might find interesting, I did anyway.

http://bacchusacademyofwine.com/barrel- ... e-whiskey/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow