Lower Temp Ferments Seem to Help Quality

[hilbilly]

I've been making Vodka using a VM for a while now and started with a BW wash then went to Corn Flakes and now in the midst of my first BW in a very long time. What I've discovered (or stumbled on) is that lower temp ferments produce a cleaner product. I use Red Star yeast and the packet says to make sure the water temp is between 32C and 43C. When I first started I was pitching yeast in a wash that was 32C but the smell went off as soon as it started to work. I then tried lower temps and have now worked my way down to 26C. I find that pitching at the lower temp produces a nice sweet smell when the ferment takes off and as it slowly increases temps it will still smell good unless it gets too high. For me that seems to be above around 28C, say 29C and if it hits 30C it is not pleasant. The ferments smell better at lower temps and the low wines produced by it are cleaner too. My preferred wash temp is now 26C to 27C. Seems odd, since the package says to use higher temps. In any case I'm getting a better product now.

[NZChris]

I haven't read the blurb on your Red Star packet, but I understand that the high pitching temperature is only for re-hydrating the yeast when making a starter, not for the entire mash/wort/wash/must/whatever. Even when starting a lager at 17C, I re-hydrate at 39C, then pitch when it has equalized with the lager temperature.

[hilbilly]

That might explain it. I don't re-hydrate. I just pitch the yeast into the cool wash and stir it up good. I use 210g of yeast in an 80l wash.

[NZChris]

I use 5g in an 80l grape must Make the starter the day before and by the time I've finished treading and de-stemming, the starter is rockin'.

[Jimbo]

Dry yeasts like a warm rehydration in water, 32C is 90F. Sounds about right. But not a 90F ferment! Thats cookin and will throw all sorts of extra congeners (gunk) in your hooch. 80F for bakers seems good, lower and risk a stall, higher and risk congeners. 80F = 26.5, right where you found it ideal. Nice work.

[hilbilly]

Well it took me a while to get there but at least I finally arrived at the right temp.

[Coyote]

I like loooooooooooooooooooong slow ferments

Coyote

[MitchyBourbon]

A good reason to do a proper rehydrate before pitching is that you will have a lot more healthy yeast to ferment with. When you put dry yeast into any liquid the yeast cell walls are like sponges first few seconds. The cell walls will allow anything that is dissolved in that liquid to pass through the cell walls. Absorbing sugars whether from must, wort or sugar head, directly into the yeast cell will damage or kill it.

The proper way to rehydrate yeast is to use warm (90°F or whatever is stated on the package) sterilized (previously boiled) plain water, about 1 cup per yeast packet. Pour yeast onto the surface and let it sit for 10 to 15 minutes before you give it a stir. Now if you wish, you can pitch it when it and whatever you are fermenting have reached the temp you plan to ferment at. Or if you wish you can turn it into a starter by adding an equal amount of must, wort or wash. You want your starter sg to be less than what your fermenting. Cover very loosely with tin foil. Stir vigorously every few hours to aerate.

Note:
There are some products out there that may be suitable to be used during rehydration.

[hilbilly]

It's been a long time since I read the BW recipe. I've been using it (or a corn flakes version) for so long now I have the process etched in my memory and as I recall, it called for 200g of dry yeast pitched into the wash and stirred in. I also recall that this amount of yeast was used in consideration of not re-hydrating it and the expectation that some will die off. Will the dead yeast harm the ferment? So if I was to re-hydrate the dry yeast I expect I would use less, but how much less? Currently using 200g in an 80l wash with 17kg of sugar and 3 large tins of tomato paste. Last batch went from SG of 1.084 to 0.990 in 7 days and the smell from the wash was very pleasant the whole time. No off smells.

[Shine NOLA]

It's been a long time since I read the BW recipe. I've been using it (or a corn flakes version) for so long now I have the process etched in my memory and as I recall, it called for 200g of dry yeast pitched into the wash and stirred in. I also recall that this amount of yeast was used in consideration of not re-hydrating it and the expectation that some will die off. Will the dead yeast harm the ferment? So if I was to re-hydrate the dry yeast I expect I would use less, but how much less? Currently using 200g in an 80l wash with 17kg of sugar and 3 large tins of tomato paste. Last batch went from SG of 1.084 to 0.990 in 7 days and the smell from the wash was very pleasant the whole time. No off smells.

1 -1/2 oz per 5 gal ?
is that because your doing 80l ? (21 gal)
I've been using about 3 grams of red star dady per 5 gal (20l)
been working fine except i have to keep it about 87 to 90f
during the winter months it has wanted to stall if gets cooler than that.
will more yeast help?

[myles]

I would be amazed at any other result.

Clean fermentation, good starter, phased sugar additions. These are all key points. If you are a vodka purist then you don't put average in the boiler.

High quality product needs high quality fermentation.

[hilbilly]

1 -1/2 oz per 5 gal ?
is that because your doing 80l ? (21 gal)
I've been using about 3 grams of red star dady per 5 gal (20l)
been working fine except i have to keep it about 87 to 90f
during the winter months it has wanted to stall if gets cooler than that.
will more yeast help?

I am just following the BW recipe which calls for 225g in an 80l wash. I've been using a little less yeast though at 200g. Don't know if that helps but I haven't had any problems.

I would be amazed at any other result.

Clean fermentation, good starter, phased sugar additions. These are all key points. If you are a vodka purist then you don't put average in the boiler.

High quality product needs high quality fermentation.

Shine Nola could you please enlighten me regarding the points you made about a good starter and phased sugar additions. I would be very happy to learn a better way to do this.

[shadylane]

Will the dead yeast harm the ferment?

Not as long if there isn't too much dead yeast.
It's kind of like using compost to fertilize a garden.
A small amount of dead yeast is one of the ingredients in a yeast bomb

[woodshed]

210g in 80L? I pitch 2g per gallon as a standard. Clean, fast ferments.

[corene1]

I haven't done the birdwatchers recipe but do a lot of AG mashes and use Red Star bakers yeast. I had to get out my Celsius converter. I have found that my mashes work best between 26 and 28 Celsius also ( 78 to 82 farenheit) Any warmer and it produces off flavors and the smell sours a bit. I typically pull about a quart of beer from the mash in a 1/2 gallon jar and put my yeast in that for about 30 minuets before pitching. It gives it a good start and equalizes the temperatures. Most all of my mashes will finish around 1.000 sometimes a bit lower .996 with starts around 1 .065. but it takes at least 7 days to finish and sometimes as long as 10 days.

[rager]

. I typically pull about a quart of beer from the mash in a 1/2 gallon jar and put my yeast in that for about 30 minuets before pitching. It gives it a good start and equalizes the temperatures..

I do the same while my mash is cooling with a wort chiller. only difference is I cut that mash in half with water to lower the SG . by the time the mash is cool the starter as had a good hour to get happy.

been working well for me. I use bakers yeast and I push the higher limits of temps that are often mentioned here. but it works for me.

rr

[S-Cackalacky]

Now that I have a temp controller in my ferment box, I hope to keep a little better control over ferment temps. Last winter when I first used the box the 60W lightbulb was on constantly. SF washes were finishing in less than 3 days and I thought that was great. This winter I want to try to keep the temp down at just under 80 dF. I'm hoping this will allow for a longer ferment and hopefully a cleaner wash.

I'm beginning to see fermentation like raising Kobe beef - pamper those little bastards and they'll make something delicious.

[hilbilly]

It seems odd to me that some people are shocked at the amount of yeast I'm using, since it is what is called for in the BW "tried and true" recipes. It appears I'm using about 5 times the amount of yeast others are using in their recipes. Since this is the only recipe I've been using since starting this hobby, I thought this was normal. But that recipe also calls for maintaining the wash temp between 30C and 32C for the entire ferment. As noted earlier I've discovered that those temps don't produce the best results for me. So maybe I need to adjust the amount of yeast I use and the way I introduce it to the wash.

FYI, I just finished a spirit run with the lower temp ferment and the end result is definitely better.

210g in 80L? I pitch 2g per gallon as a standard. Clean, fast ferments.

Woodshed, do you re-hydrate the yeast before pitching?

[Shine NOLA]

1 -1/2 oz per 5 gal ?
is that because your doing 80l ? (21 gal)
I've been using about 3 grams of red star dady per 5 gal (20l)
been working fine except i have to keep it about 87 to 90f
during the winter months it has wanted to stall if gets cooler than that.
will more yeast help?

I am just following the BW recipe which calls for 225g in an 80l wash. I've been using a little less yeast though at 200g. Don't know if that helps but I haven't had any problems.

I would be amazed at any other result.

Clean fermentation, good starter, phased sugar additions. These are all key points. If you are a vodka purist then you don't put average in the boiler.

High quality product needs high quality fermentation.

Shine Nola could you please enlighten me regarding the points you made about a good starter and phased sugar additions. I would be very happy to learn a better way to do this.

hillbilly,
I commented about the yeast amounts you were using because I wondered if I should use a bit more
Now what myles mentioned , and what I am just learning about, phased sugar additions is where you don't add all your sugar in the beginning.
you allow the yeast to build up , adding more sugar as your ferment progresses(causes less stress on the yeast) . Now a clean ferment (i believe) requires controlled temperatures(causes less stress on the yeast) . A good starter is proofing your yeast. Some sware by it, others sprinkle it on top. And I'm to new to know any better
still doing required reading.
Maybe Myles will pitch back in and clue us both

[hilbilly]

I screwed up and asked Shine Nola about the comments made by Myles. Maybe I should spend a little more time reading before posting.

So my question about a good starter and phased sugar additions is really for Myles.

Shine Nola; I should have looked at your join date and I would have realized you are new to this too. I consider myself fairly new because I have only been using 1 recipe (with minor variations) since joining here. So my experience is very limited. As far as the amount of yeast goes, I have not tried using less so I'm not aware if that will work or not. I guess I've just been following the same process because it seems to work. i have had a stall in the past and I've had some ferments take over 2 weeks. I've kind of settled into something that has been working but am always willing to learn a new or better way of doing things.

The biggest changes I've made is to try Rad's All bran recipe but still using the same amount and method of pitching the yeast. When I couldn't find All bran on sale I've used Mini Wheats or Corn Flakes with good success. I've got some Rice Crispies to try too but just went back to the BW recipe to see how it turns out with the lower temp ferments. It is a little less work to get started than corn flakes since I don't have to crush the flakes and add them to boiling water. Just open the cans of tomato paste and stir into the wash.

[Shine NOLA]

I have had good luck with Deathwish's wheat germ