lactose and corn syrup solids

[thisguy]

Hey guys,
a friend of mine came across a few thousand pounds of powdered lactose and corn syrup solids hes uses it to feed his cows. I read on the parent site that a special strain of yeast is needed to break down the lactose. I am not opposed to it, but its just something new to try.

Then the corn syrup solids, I have no clue about that one. My guess is that it could work, cause it cant be much different than corn mash we make for corn whiskey, just I wont have the cracked corn.

The goal is to make neutral spirits for some absinthe. If all of this seems like too much of a hassle, ill just resort to the good ol grain sugar from the store, i just figured if i can get a substitute for free, why not try it.

Anybody have any experience with any of these two things?

[FullySilenced]

See if you can get an data for the product...

You may want to mix up a batch at 2 pounds to the gallon of hot water maybe add some enzymes, and see what the SG may be... then yeast it up and let it ferment... ?

don't know till you don't know...

FS

[thisguy]

im doing up some corn syrup solids in about 3 gallons of water. Gonna put two packets of lalvin d47. About 5 pounds of solids. some yeast nutriends. Gonna let it ferment, and well see how it goes.

Ill post some results and a downloadable excel spreadsheet for those who care when its all over with.

[dstaines]

Corn syrup solids is just corn syrup with the water removed, and is 100% fermentable so you made a good choice there. Lactose can't be broken down by the yeasts that we use. It's commonly used as a non-fermentable sweetener for hard cider and such for that reason, to keep the beverage sweet after the yeast have eaten everything they can.

If you were to break down the lactose into glucose and galactose with added lactase enzyme, the yeast would be totally happy eating it. I have no idea what the fermented galactose would contribute to your spirit flavor-wise, though that metabolic pathway does produce alcohol. (Citation "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21246509") Lactase enzyme is easy to find at drugstores, sold commecially as Lact-aid.

[thisguy]

Corn syrup solids is just corn syrup with the water removed, and is 100% fermentable so you made a good choice there. Lactose can't be broken down by the yeasts that we use. It's commonly used as a non-fermentable sweetener for hard cider and such for that reason, to keep the beverage sweet after the yeast have eaten everything they can.

If you were to break down the lactose into glucose and galactose with added lactase enzyme, the yeast would be totally happy eating it. I have no idea what the fermented galactose would contribute to your spirit flavor-wise, though that metabolic pathway does produce alcohol. (Citation "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21246509") Lactase enzyme is easy to find at drugstores, sold commecially as Lact-aid.

Thanks!

Notes taken.

From what i read, corn syrup solids are pretty much dextrose/glucose. So when i use the solids, do I have to use the lactic enzyme? Or just leave it as is?

All in all it fermented well. At the end of it I achieved a .0232 for ABV. Starting Gravity of 1.80, with a final gravity of 1.062 (pretty sure thats way too high for final gravity, i let it sit for two days when it reached that and too measurements both days and it remained the same, so it was done). I used two packets of Lalvin D47 yeast. 3 gallons of water. I had six apples sitting in the fridge about to go bad, so I chopped them up and put them in there. Took about six days to do its thing.

When i distilled, I didnt like how low it sat in the boiler (inch or two over the element) , so I added about a gallon of water. I think i ran it too hard, plus the dilution. Product started coming out at 40 proof. Tasted reallly good though, pretty sweet and had a nice little apple flavor to it.

All in all, if you guys can get your hands on a bag of corn syrup solids, id scoop it up. If I had a shipping container full of the bags like the guy i got it from does, id offer em to you, but thats not up to me.

Neutrals what i was going for and i got it, just at a low proof.

[dstaines]

From what i read, corn syrup solids are pretty much dextrose/glucose. So when i use the solids, do I have to use the lactic enzyme? Or just leave it as is?

Are you asking about powdered lactose here or the corn syrup solids? Yeast do not need any added enzymes to ferment corn syrup solids, which is already 100% fermentable. Under ideal conditions it will ferment completely dry.

At the end of it I achieved a .0232 for ABV. Starting Gravity of 1.80, with a final gravity of 1.062

I assume you meant that your starting gravity was 1.080, correct?

You are also right that your final gravity of 1.062 is too high. That is actually a very good starting point for a 6-8% wash, which is what many of us shoot for. Especially with corn syrup as your fermentable medium, your final gravity should have been under 1.010. Since you said it fermented for 6 days without dropping below 1.060, that sounds like a classic case of stuck fermentation to me.

Did you add any yeast nutrients to the wash? Homebrewing shops will sell powdered nutrient that will help the yeast maintain the strength of their cell walls through the full fermentation. Without anything besides water and sugar they are likely to poop out early, especially with a higher starting gravity like 1.080. You don't have to use the powdered stuff though, lots of things will work. Tomato paste is an inexpensive substitute that lots of people use.

[thisguy]

From what i read, corn syrup solids are pretty much dextrose/glucose. So when i use the solids, do I have to use the lactic enzyme? Or just leave it as is?

Are you asking about powdered lactose here or the corn syrup solids? Yeast do not need any added enzymes to ferment corn syrup solids, which is already 100% fermentable. Under ideal conditions it will ferment completely dry.

At the end of it I achieved a .0232 for ABV. Starting Gravity of 1.80, with a final gravity of 1.062

I assume you meant that your starting gravity was 1.080, correct?

You are also right that your final gravity of 1.062 is too high. That is actually a very good starting point for a 6-8% wash, which is what many of us shoot for. Especially with corn syrup as your fermentable medium, your final gravity should have been under 1.010. Since you said it fermented for 6 days without dropping below 1.060, that sounds like a classic case of stuck fermentation to me.

Did you add any yeast nutrients to the wash? Homebrewing shops will sell powdered nutrient that will help the yeast maintain the strength of their cell walls through the full fermentation. Without anything besides water and sugar they are likely to poop out early, especially with a higher starting gravity like 1.080. You don't have to use the powdered stuff though, lots of things will work. Tomato paste is an inexpensive substitute that lots of people use.

Hey! Yup I was talking about the solids with the enzymes. So I do not need any lactic enzymes or anything. Gottcha. I didnt use any this time around and wont for the future ferments. Thanks a bunch!

Yah the starting gravity was 1.080. Do you think thats due to the solids not being dissolved completely?

And yes I added nutrients; LD Carlson Co. Yeast Nutrient. It calls for 1 tsp per gallon, so i did 3 tsp in this case. It contains food grade urea and diammonium phosphate. First time trying it, do you think that may be the culprit?

Every other ferment I've done gets well below 1.010, so i figured it was stuck.

Thanks for the input!

[dstaines]

Yah the starting gravity was 1.080. Do you think thats due to the solids not being dissolved completely?

If you dissolved 5-6 pounds of the corn sugar to your three gallons of water, that would put you right into the 1080 range. Corn sugar adds 46 gavity points/lb/gallon

First time trying it, do you think that may be the culprit?

There are lots of other things that can cause a stalled fermentation besides insufficient nutrients, but I don't think having Too Much nutrient would have done it. Most of them relate to stressing or shocking the yeast when you pitch it. The D-47 yeast that you used has to be rehyrdated in sterile water befor pitching, needs an oxygenated wash to help it grow a full sized colony, and doesn't like temperatures outside of the 60-70F range. Without knowing your whole process, any missing combination of those three could have made your yeast punch the clock.

I used a homebrewing calculator to figure your yeast cell pitching rates, I personally would have rehydrated and pitched at least three packets of fresh D-47. If the packets were expired or even just somewhat old, or had been stored outside the refrigerator, the number of viable cells in the packet would be diminished possibly requiring even more

[thisguy]

So i should have used more corn syrup solids? More in the range of 7-8 pounds?

I did hydrate the yeast before hand. And my version of oxygenating the wash is shaking it alot once in the carboy. So that may be one problem. And i can pretty much gaurantee the temps were above 60-70f. I dont have the packet, but i do believe it said they could handle more than that. So i didnt let it cool to 60-70f. And i keep them in the fridge.

The process for this was: bring the water to a boil to help the solids dissolve. Add the solids and stir stir stir. Let it cool to about 80-85f. Threw in the nutrients. Threw in the yeast. Then threw in the thin apple slices.

Im guessing the temps were too high. And it stressed them.

Also whered you get this stat from?

Corn sugar adds 46 gavity points/lb/gallon

[dstaines]

This spec sheet from the Lalvin website lists the aceptable temperature range at 59-68F
http://www.lalvinyeast.com/D47.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

If you prefer to pitch and ferment in the 85+ range, I suggest using regular bread yeast. I use fleischmanns for grain and grain+sugar washes. It tastes good, dries out completely and likes a more tropical climate.

I wouldn't go any higher than you did with the specific gravity, especially since you're trying to make a neutral. Keeping the fSG and final ABV lower keeps the yeast from getting stessed out. The more pissed off the yeast get, the more off-flavors they produce which you will have to work to clean up.

My source for the specific gravity points of corn sugar is below. It lists 46 ppg for Dextrose only, fructose is not listed. Since fructose and dextrose are isomers I just kind of assumed it would be almost identical...
http://www.homebrewexchange.net/resourc ... rmentables" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[thisguy]

I did up another batch, about 5 - 6 pounds of corn syrup solids, more of the nutrient and 3 gallons of water with 2 packets of red star bread yeast. Well see how it goes!

[Teddysad]

Here in New Zealand ( we have a huge dairy industry) a process has been developed to turn Whey and lactose into ethanol.
Disposal of whey in a major problem so this was done to assist with that.

A special yeast Kluveromyces fragilis has been developed to do the work and the resulting ethanol can be produced in about 8 different grades.
Much of the commercial spirits produced here is using that source and at least 50% of the output of the ethanol is exported


yeast
C12H22O11 + H2O →4C2H5OH + 4CO2
lactose water ethanol carbon dioxide

I can provide much more info if there is interest

[dstaines]

Teddysad

That's pretty interesting. I assume that ethanol made in this way is sold or exported for fuel use only, right? In the states there are relatively recently developed strains that can digest and ferment straight lignin and cellulose, allowing industrial ethanol plants to use corn stalks and other solid farm waste as feedstock without driving up the cost of corn feed. To the best of my knowledge though the only yeast that is used for beverage alcohol is S. cerevisciae.

hmmm... Milkshine. Hell I'd try anything twice

*EDIT*
Alright, just answered my own question. K&L Wines, a San Francisco purveyor of note for high-end and sometimes unusual spirits, carries "Broken Shed Vodka" distilled from whey, imported from New Zealand. K&L's website descibes it as "the best vodka we carry in the store", and they ought to know. That's cool stuff man

[DAD300]

thisguy...your recipe is very sugar heavy. If it were straight white table sugar, suggestion would be 1.5 lbs per gallon for a reasonable recipe. So the initial excess sugar may stress the yeast. It will work, but it will be slow and bad flavor.

Apples as nutes? When you invert your sugar (cook it until dissolved and golden) add a tablespoon of sacrificial yeast to the cooking. The yeast you pitch later will love the dead yeast. A hand full of breakfast cereal would be a great off the shelf nutrient.

[Teddysad]

http://the-vodka-guy.com/vodka-reviews/ ... ka-review/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This sums it up well

The plants here produce more than 17 million litres of ethanol annually. The bulk is for beverage use and most of the exported stuff is for this purpose.

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

Most if not all RTDs here in NZ are made with ethanol from dairy waste.

[thisguy]

thisguy...your recipe is very sugar heavy. If it were straight white table sugar, suggestion would be 1.5 lbs per gallon for a reasonable recipe. So the initial excess sugar may stress the yeast. It will work, but it will be slow and bad flavor.

Apples as nutes? When you invert your sugar (cook it until dissolved and golden) add a tablespoon of sacrificial yeast to the cooking. The yeast you pitch later will love the dead yeast. A hand full of breakfast cereal would be a great off the shelf nutrient.

Yes it was, they all died. I used the apples cause they were just sitting in the fridge about to go bad, not for nutes. I dont know where I got that amount of sugar from...thought I used the calc on the homepage and it came out okay...