Blending whiskey tails for ageing on oak and the "finish"

[DukeBoxer]

Ok there will be a few questions here so here goes, this is for an all grain with a mash bill of about 67% corn and 33% white wheat malt...

The first question is this, when you guys talk about blending tails back to the product for ageing are you adding tails that are cloudy? I have been reading a lot about blending and ageing, mostly because I have yet to age something that actually has a nice long "finish", which to me means having a nice lingering taste for any amount of time after the whiskey has been swallowed. A friend of mine has said multiple times that the product is good, he just wishes it had more of a finish. From my reading and research I have come to the conclusion that I'm not blending back enough of the tails and that's the reason for the short finish. I have one barrel going right now that is not quite done yet but for me it has the best finish I've achieved and that's because I paid more attention to the tails and didn't just switch to the feints jar after the first sign of them coming on. Like others have pointed out I see 3 or 4 phases of tails, the first for me is when it starts to taste a little off from what was coming out during the hearts, usually of which I add back to the center. Then there's a phase when there's not much taste and it kind of burns and is just generally bad, that goes into the feints. Then there's the phase where the grain flavor starts to come over pretty strong and is pretty tasty. That part gets partially blended back to the center which means I'll put a little in, taste it and then maybe a little more until I'm satisfied with the taste. With this mash bill I'm going for the sweetness of the corn and the toasty flavors from the malt while it's white.

I've looked around and only saw one reference to someone that said he filtered the cloudy tails before blending back into the center (when I say center I mean the whole of the product that will be aged). My next question is this, is it the grainy, earthy flavor of the tails that change over time while ageing that gives the finished product the long "finish" I'm after? I'm convinced it is for some reason but I want to be certain and on top of that I want to make a better product. My last question is if you are using the cloudy tails, do you or don't you filter first and if you don't then does that cloudiness settle out or otherwise clear up some way during the ageing?

[T-Pee]

Then there's the phase where the grain flavor starts to come over pretty strong and is pretty tasty. That part gets partially blended back to the center which means I'll put a little in, taste it and then maybe a little more until I'm satisfied with the taste. With this mash bill I'm going for the sweetness of the corn and the toasty flavors from the malt while it's white.

You're pretty close. I won't use cloudy in any way. That'll come back to bite you when you dilute.

tp

[corene1]

I am certainly no expert on this as I am still learning and experimenting also. I have been doing some research on this topic for a while now and have discovered a few interesting ideas that may help you. The finish you talk about comes about by the mixing of the phenols from the distilled spirits and tannins from the wood you are aging it on. In short as these two mix and intermingle over time they work on each other giving us the finish flavors that we taste in older aged whiskies. I have also found out that these phenols come across at different temperatures while distilling . It seems that the early tails are quite flavorful as well as the late tails. It seems to me that the mid tails are the ones carrying the bad flavors so I collect those separately and save them for a feints run and I also collect the late tails in a different vessel and I will add in the late tails sparingly to add flavor to the blend . I have noticed if I let them set in a cool area even the refrigerator for a week or two they will settle and then I will filter them before using them. I have some from an AG recipe that I have had on oak for 3 months now using that method and it is really starting to come around as far as the finish is concerned. I think in a year or so it will be quite good . The big problem is there are so many combinations and peoples pallets will vary so what I like you may not and vice versa.

[woodshed]

Mid tails for me are avoided when it comes to the barrel. But I like the lows if you give it time.
The high end tails go in simply because of the sweet spot in the transition. Lot of flavor there.
Mids go into the next run. Good flavors there as well just need a little cleaning. And lends itself well to consistency of product.

[DukeBoxer]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Corene you're saying that if your tails are cloudy you let them settle out and then use them to blend? I understand the settling out part because I made a pear brandy once and the whole distillate came over cloudy. I have it sitting in a cabinet and it has cleared/settled out over time. I'm glad we can all agree on the middle tails part, they're just bad. Usually when I tasted those I cranked the heat and switched to a feints jar but one day for some reason, probably from reading on here, I tasted what was coming out after. That's when it hit me that there is still good flavors after the bad ones and to have a little patience. I have a friend who selects and bottles single barrels of whiskey under his own label and he is my go to when I need an opinion on something aged that I think might be good to bottle. I have to say that I enjoy a clear whiskey much more than the aged, mostly for the clean fresh taste of the grain, but I do want to be able to make a quality aged product also.

[T-Pee]

I understand the settling out part because I made a pear brandy once and the whole distillate came over cloudy.

Sounds more like a boiler puke.

tp

[DukeBoxer]

That's what I would have said too but I have a glass "sight column" right at the connection to the keg and the charge was maybe 7 gallons, plus the fact it was my supposed spirit run and I ran it pretty slow. Nothing made it's way up that pipe. Anyway I saved everything and I think I might do an apple cider ferment and the throw all that in and do a single slow run and see what happens...

[Jimbo]

I never use cloudy tails, them are really deep tails. I use the first full quart at the transition where the tails smell is unmistakable. Looking at my notes from a wheated bourbon on my simple potstill, here's how it sliced out.

I took 17 quarts total from a spirit run (straight mash, no feints added) Ditching fores and early heads, first 2 pints, I kept thru Quart 12 (2-12) #12 measured at 60% and 199 at vapor temp at top of boiler. Quart 11 was starting to transition, quart 12 was unmistakable. Quarts 13-17 went in the feints jug. I kept 11 quarts which averaged 71%, added 2 quarts distilled water and barreled 13 quarts at 62%. Seems my cut usually stops when that thermo plays with 200F. But thats my setup, and my taste, yoru results may vary.

[DukeBoxer]

Thanks Jimbo, I was waiting to see what you had to say. My bourbon is a take on yours minus the barley...I'm not a big fan. I was going to ask you this through PM but I thought it might be helpful to keep as a thread and I'm glad I did. I think I got what I was looking for! When you say you ditched fores and early heads did you mean first two quarts or do you collect those in pints then switch to quarts? There might be some confusion for someone else (like myself...ha!) trying to make cuts and ditching the first quart instead of the first 2. When I make my cuts for heads I always do it by tasting whats coming out, if there's burn it's still heads and stays in the feints jar, when the burn starts to subside I throw a new jar under and taste until the burn is gone, that's my late heads that may or may not make it back into the center cut, then I start collecting the hearts in a single jug and taste till I can sense some tails. That's when I start to collect in smaller jars again. I keep tasting for those middle tails, switch out for those and then switch again when I can sense some good taste coming back. I have these pint and a half jars I like to collect in, seems like a happy medium between pint and quart jars (obviously)...

[Jimbo]

? Thought I was pretty clear. The first 2 pints were cut. Quarts 2-12 were kept. 2 pints = the first quart.

For teh record, if you ferment clean, low and slow with a clean yeast. Like US-05 at 66-68 dgrees, aerated properly, you wont have a ton of heads. Use an estery yeast, or ferment warm, or torture your yeast in any other manner and your cuts may well be much larger.

[DukeBoxer]

You were clear but I was just making sure that's what you meant. Someone reading this and pulling two pints of heads when they should be pulling 2 quarts is leaving a lot of stuff in the hearts. Just wanted to clarify

[Jimbo]

That was just a data point, based on my set up and my taste buds. In practice people should pull whatever their nose and taste tells them. I hate to give prescriptive numbers like that because everyones rig is differnet, run rate is differnet, yeast and ferment temp is different , recipe, taste buds etc etc etc For me, with all my conditions above, seems my keep is around typically 65%. For this run its 64.7% 11 out of 17 total quarts.

The point I was trying to make, and just yammered on too long as usual, was that I had 7 quarts of tails. the first was a transition, the 2nd has clear fusels, but those 2 I kept because I believe they add to the character of the whsikey after aging. The 5 remaining just got worse and worse. The last of the 7, possibly part of the 6th was where I had cloudy tails. THat's way deep, way past anything I keep.

[Fidget]

? Thought I was pretty clear. The first 2 pints were cut. Quarts 2-12 were kept. 2 pints = the first quart.

For teh record, if you ferment clean, low and slow with a clean yeast. Like US-05 at 66-68 dgrees, aerated properly, you wont have a ton of heads. Use an estery yeast, or ferment warm, or torture your yeast in any other manner and your cuts may well be much larger.

I can vouch for this, I've only one AG under my belt, but honestly, after fores, the first jar didn't have any bite to it at all...I knew it _should_ be heads, but after revisiting them a few times over a few weeks I did fianlly end up keeping all my first 3 jars as they all tasted and smelled so damn good!


My mash was under 10% for sure, I followed Jimbos bill as it goes and also I'm not an efficient brew house
I mashed on the grain, plenty of nutrients there.
I let it ferment cool (for the most part) with a clean ale yeast: Nottingham.
I allowed it many weeks to finish and clean up, I'd say it was close to 2 months from pitch until I finally ran it.... this was not through choice, just didn't have opertunity to run it for ages, but In retrospect, I honestly believe after researching a lot since on making beer, that extended time is a good thing for the flavour profile, and avoiding nasties.

I'm no expert, just saying what I did, what I saw and what I taste.

[Jimbo]

Nice work fidget.

At the risk of going off on a tangent in this thread, regarding the ferment conditions and heads content, I firmly believe another reason commercial whiskey is so high in heads content (in addition to poor cuts) is that they ferment hot and fast for economics reasons. 2-3 days and they need to run. Koval has 8 huge ferment tanks to support 2 runs a day (4 day ferment). And they are at the long end of the scale. Most whiskey producers talk in terms of hours, 67 hours etc.