old barrel = weak color, unless....;)

[BoomTown]

Folks, most of you know, we're using little Gibbs barrels to make our test batches.

I'm keeping some fair to middling records, and here's one thing I'm learning. Re-using a barrel, you can get pretty close to the same taste in the same time frame over and over, which I attribute to the way the oak transfer it's contributin back and forth through the charchol barrier. I'm mean the same thing happens over and over, and the oak simply never quits.

Except for color. Re-using a barrel does rob each generation of the color we love and look for in our bourbon. So being a whole lot ainal, I'm happy with the taste, but I've come up with a way of adding color, while minimally impacting the taste envelope. Keep in mind, we don't plan to do this with 53 gallon barrels, but it might work just as well, only the big guys will know, and I bet they aint talking.

But here's a solution, if you give up your purist approach. I just learned that you can take 1 cup of sugar, 1/4 water, and make DARK carmel. You put it in a heavy sauce pan, and stir it till it boils away the water, and begins to char the liquid sugar. For you purists, I suspect that the charred sugar is chemicaly similar to that charred sugar in an oak barrel just behind the charcoal layer.

So after your drink has been in the little barrel for 4 months (that's my experience, your barrel, your climate, your experience may vary) draw off 1/2 gallon into a mason jar, and drop a teaspoon of the above prepared dark carmel into the jar. Let this sit, swirling every couple days till that black lump disappears, and give it over to a sip. About a week more, usually, it'll all be clear, rich amber/brown, real whiskey. Shouldn't notice much difference in the taste, unless you add too much camel, or burn the camel. If you're worried about taste, use corn syrup to make your caramel....

Comments?

[dstaines]

This has a solid basis in commercial BMPs. Scotch makers, who traditionally age their spirits in used bourbon barrels, commonly use caramel coloring to adjust the color of their spirits. Used barrels give them the same problem they're giving you; diminished and inconsistent degrees of coloring from barrel to barrel and use to use. Consistent appearance matters even more to the big dogs than to us, so they use the caramel coloring to match batch to batch.

I've never heard of it being used in commercial bourbon but I would not be surprised at all.

[DeepSouth]

You are commercial correct? Just keep in mind the labeling regulations and formula approval needed to add flavoring and coloring to spirits. What are you going to label the product?

[dstaines]

Here's a link to a very dry, dense article about the use of E150 spirit caramel in scotch. The author claims that most single malts and virtually all blends are colored with this product. Part of the legal definition of scotch whisky specifically lists this product as the only allowed coloring agent besides oak barrels. Of course, the caramelized sugar lumps that you're using are not the same as the E150(a) spirit caramel allowed by scotch makers.

http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/2011/ ... -e150.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Unless I'm mistaken, the US legal definition for "Straight" whiskey (bourbon, rye, malt, anything) doesn't permit caramel coloring, but that it is permissible in whiskeys that are not straight. Wikipedia seems to back me up on this.

[DeepSouth]

Straight refers to whiskeys that are at least 2 years old and have been aged in new charred barrels.

[3d0g]

You are commercial correct? Just keep in mind the labeling regulations and formula approval needed to add flavoring and coloring to spirits. What are you going to label the product?

Not necessarily. Harmless coloring/flavoring/blending materials up to 2.5% of volume do not need formula approval, depending on beverage type.

[DeepSouth]

Another thing with labeling, it's up to you to make sure your label is in accordance with regulations. The TTB goes on your word that you are labeling the product correctly. Some companies have intentionally and unintentionally mislabeled products and it has bitten them.

[dstaines]

I stumbled on an answer to the question about caramel in commercial bourbon - TTB says no. You can read Chuck Cowdery's discussion of the issue here "http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... o-how.html".

Basically, the TTB says that harmless coloring flavoring blending material is not allowed in bourbon (regular old not-straight bourbon) because there is no history of it being traditionally used. Leading to a chicken or the egg situation. It is allowed for rye whiskey but not straight rye.

BUT
Since at the hobby scale we scoff at the TTB and their confusing, contradictory, selectively enforced bullshit rules, we are free to put harmless caramel, hibiscus flavor, chickens AND eggs in our drink and call it whatever the hell we want.

Boomtown I wonder if a similar practice could be done with fruit juices. I like to make peach brandy in the summertime, and sometimes age some of it on lightly charred peach wood. It comes out very very lightly colored. I think I'll try reserving some of the peach juice and caramelizing it to add color and some new and interesting flavors.

[Bushman]

Suggestion, if what you say is true then I would be inclined to barrel age using the solera method with moving them for a shorter time period after aging into the newer barrels thus you will not need to purchase as many and the color will still come through. This should give you more use of each barrel.

[3d0g]

I stumbled on an answer to the question about caramel in commercial bourbon - TTB says no. You can read Chuck Cowdery's discussion of the issue here "http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2015/0 ... o-how.html".

Basically, the TTB says that harmless coloring flavoring blending material is not allowed in bourbon (regular old not-straight bourbon) because there is no history of it being traditionally used. Leading to a chicken or the egg situation. It is allowed for rye whiskey but not straight rye.

Not really. Look at Beam's Red Stag. Just classify as "distilled spirit specialties" and you can do and call it whatever the hell you want (with TTB approval, of course).

[Jimbo]

Caramel coloring your whiskey is deceiving and cheating. It gives the impression that whats contained in the bottle is rich and full of delicious vanilla and butterscotch and so many other flavors from toasted and charred Oak lactones, when its not anythingof the sort. I dont think any self respecting craft whiskey producer caramel colors their product. This is a trick used by big boys to make all the product across millions of bottles homogenous and the same. Good for them.

Further, for bourbon you cant by law add caramel coloring to any bourbon designated 'Straight Bourbon', nor should you need to since bourbon must use fresh new oak. And for other whiskeys, you can, by law, add fresh new oak sticks into a tired old barrel to add not only coloring but true caramel, vanilla butterscotch flavor from real oak lactones in the wood. So there's no need to bullshit the world and deceive them into thinking you have a rich oaky product that will disappoint when they take a sip.

[Jimbo]

Correction: TTB states bourbon of any kind (not just straight) cannot contain coloring or flavoring.

[dstaines]

Caramel coloring your whiskey is deceiving and cheating.

I agree with you as far as commercial whiskey goes, as does the TTB. The big dogs are law bound to follow strict rules because we've seen some of the abuses that can come from under-regulation of unscrupulous profiteers. But for home hobbyists, I see no harm in trying out all the "cheater" ways. We "nuke-age" and add fruits and spices and all manner of crazy things that would never make it past the Round File at the TTB. As long as safe practices are followed no body is hurt, and the whole community of homedistillers here benefits for every whack job with a bug up his butt to find out "What if I...?"

And yeah Boomtown I'm calling you a whack job. lol

[dstaines]

Not necessarily. Harmless coloring/flavoring/blending materials up to 2.5% of volume do not need formula approval, depending on beverage type.

Interesting side-note that I also read from Chuck Cowdery, about Templeton Rye whiskey which I love

Templeton had been playing this close to the chest, but ended up admitting to using (less than 2.5%) of flavoring materials in their whiskey. They buy rye whiskey from MGD Indiana and then flavor it to meet their flavor profile. The reason they published for doing this is kind of interesting, assuming it's true: When the company started, they wanted to use a old rye whiskey recipe that they got from a Templeton local who's family had run shine during prohibition. The TTB formula guys wouldn't let them sell that recipe as "Rye Whiskey", I'm assuming because it included sugar. So they developed a blend of flavorings to make the bulk MGD whiskey taste more like the "authentic" rye moonshine.

[BoomTown]

You are commercial correct? Just keep in mind the labeling regulations and formula approval needed to add flavoring and coloring to spirits. What are you going to label the product?

No not yet. Were stepping in knee deep red-tape at the moment, couldn't sell a drop even if we had it, but can't 'launch' till a couple more 'i' 's get dotted, and 't's get crossed.

Just wanted to share this tip from my personal research bench.

Take a breath Jimbo. I'v followed your comments for years, and I think you are great. But keep in mind, in the spirit of H.D. board, this suggestion is well within the guidelines. As for those taste characteristics, they are intact, in fact - indications are that a barrels role in contributing those taste features doesn't get leached away, and work pretty much in the same time cycle time after time. But the science clearly explains why that color action drops off. The thin layer of caramelized sugars in the oak that happens when it goes through the charring cycle simply gets leached away. Oddly, the amount's of Carmel I added is (mathematically) when miniscule compared to what was there originally, And those vanilla's and oak floras provided by exposure to the oak barrel were not affected, at least not in the test batch we made. In practice, I would suggest that less is better, but I need more examples to study before I settle on a recipe amount. As is, I simply tossed a teaspoon coated, with the Carmel, into my #5 Libby jar (that had about a gallon of aged, but pale whiskey)and waited till the spoon was clean. In the spirit of the hobby, I did nothing wrong, just added to the body of knowledge.

If the thought bothers you, simply don't do it. You are quite correct, there are other way's to get the color, this just one is simply one way of doing it. Like microwave, only quicker and not nearly as dangerous.

Boom

[BoomTown]

You are commercial correct? Just keep in mind the labeling regulations and formula approval needed to add flavoring and coloring to spirits. What are you going to label the product?

Not necessarily. Harmless coloring/flavoring/blending materials up to 2.5% of volume do not need formula approval, depending on beverage type.

Now That's good to know. Would you have the TTB chapter and verse on that statement?

[3d0g]

Now That's good to know. Would you have the TTB chapter and verse on that statement?

Here ya go BoomTown...

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter7.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Jimbo]

Take a breath Jimbo.

Boom

Im breathing, no worries, just sharing my opinion on the matter. After all you did ask for our comments. I gave you mine. I read your posts too and have nothing but respect for you Boom. Quality member of HD and I think its fantastic youre persuing the craft business. Id love to be among your first customers! (coloring or not )

[ga flatwoods]

Just me, but I would not use it for home use as there are other ways more conventional and respected nor would I develop it as part of a business plan. A gallon Tetley tea bag per barrel may do the same thing yielding no flavor profile but I wouldnt do that either. Bushman appears to have the best idea.
GA Flatwoods

[BoomTown]

Just me, but I would not use it for home use as there are other ways more conventional and respected nor would I develop it as part of a business plan. A gallon Tetley tea bag per barrel may do the same thing yielding no flavor profile but I wouldnt do that either. Bushman appears to have the best idea.
GA Flatwoods

Yeah Flatwoods, we done that too, but pretty soon the barrels begin to be leached away, while still having lots of flavor left in them.

Tried the tea bag too, but I did taste the tea, smaller scale but...

I like the idea of tossing fresh oak in them, and do that too, but this is just a idea for a quick-time solution. Of course not to be confused with the 'quick-time' solution offered to VietNam veterans in the day...



Boom

[BoomTown]

Now That's good to know. Would you have the TTB chapter and verse on that statement?

Here ya go BoomTown...

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter7.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Thanks 3dog...very helpfull, I'd read it once but it was a year or so ago, guess I'd forgotten.

Boom