Over-oaked

[skow69]

I've heard of and read about over-oaking but couldn't imagine what it would taste like. In fact, I thought it might just be a myth. Until last week. I had a jug of bourbon at 65% that had been on oak sticks for 5 weeks, which is pretty damn old whiskey around my house. 8 sticks, 4" x 3/4" x 1/4", half toasted, half charred. More than I usually use. I remember being jazzed because it was so nice and dark. I filtered it, diluted to ~43% and bottled. Then sampled. It had a bitter astringent smokey burnt kind of taste that I've never experienced before. Totally unacceptable. I'm betting that is the taste of over-oaking.

I let it sit for a couple days in case it might smooth out. No joy. So I broke out the next jug. This one has been on oak (6 sticks) for three weeks. It's a little light, like usual. I can live with that. So I bottled up some drinking stock and thought I should be able to blend some of the o-o'ed batch with this sweet young whiskey that needs more oak and get great bourbon. I made a test blend--8 oz. of the new stuff with 1 Tbs over-oak, for a 16:1 blend. The smokey shit came right thru the sweet stuff and did NOT improve it.

So I guess I'll redistill it. This taste is powerful! I'm almost afraid to mix it in on a spirit run. I have good feints for that. I think I'll dilute it with wash for thumper charges for strips.

You've guessed my questions, I'm sure.
Does this sound like over-oaking?
Is it really that pervasive that you can't blend it out at any ratio?
Can I redistill it and leave it in the boiler?

Thanks, guys.
skow

[S-Cackalacky]

I did this once. It was like lickin' the inside of a BBQ pit. Did you rinse after charring the oak? What I did to try to save it was to throw it in with some feints and rerun it. Surprisingly the oaked flavor DID carry over, but it wasn't nearly as harsh. I put it in a jar and aged it for a few weeks - not bad. It was a little strange drinking oaked white dog. It wasn't the best I've ever made, but was drinkable and enjoyable.

[MichiganCornhusker]

bitter astringent smokey burnt kind of taste

I had this with one batch early on. I was charring my oak, but not toasting it. Tasted lightly like ashes. I attributed it to the charring, especially because I wasn't rinsing the sticks.
I threw some toasted/not charred sticks in with it and it came around, but I don't think it was as dark and far gone as you describe. Good luck with it, smokey burnt can be tough to lose.

[skow69]

I'm not getting the warm and fuzzy from you guys.

They were newly charred sticks, but I rinsed hell out of em like usual.

I think I'll mix about a pint of the burnt stuff with 5 gallons of new wash and see what happens. If that carries over maybe I'll reflux the holy living freak out of em.

Thank god I had that jug of 3 week old for backup. I coulda been out of bourbon! Aaaahhhhhhh! The horror!

Thanks for your time, fellas.
skow

[NZChris]

Seeing as you are in a hurry to drink your likker, lable it 'Oak Essence' and use it to flavor your raw white dog. (not something I've done.)

[Saltbush Bill]

I had a jug of bourbon at 65% that had been on oak sticks for 5 weeks, which is pretty damn old whiskey around my house. 8 sticks, 4" x 3/4" x 1/4", half toasted, half charred. More than I usually use.

What was the volume of the jug?

[thecroweater]

over oaking = too much tannin will come good maybe, over oaking too much char, my experience is you are up shit creek without a paddle , i got some here several years old and its as bad as it ever was . Re-running might work

[3d0g]

Know some here don't like it, but a pass through activated carbon will tone it down. SOP for most aged rums.

[still_stirrin]

Know some here don't like it, but a pass through activated carbon will tone it down. SOP for most aged rums.

Ironic....using charcoal to get rid of the charcoal taste. Who'd of thought???
ss

[rager]

less oak, more time. seems to be the motto. I use a 3/4x3/4x5 inch stick per qt. I toast and char . the stick gets 30 good seconds per side . rinse and drop in

[skow69]

Seeing as you are in a hurry to drink your likker, lable it 'Oak Essence' and use it to flavor your raw white dog. (not something I've done.)

Sounds like a really bad idea, Chris.

I had a jug of bourbon at 65% that had been on oak sticks for 5 weeks, which is pretty damn old whiskey around my house. 8 sticks, 4" x 3/4" x 1/4", half toasted, half charred. More than I usually use.

What was the volume of the jug?

About 3 qts.

Know some here don't like it, but a pass through activated carbon will tone it down. SOP for most aged rums.

Yeah, I tried carbon filtering in my early days. Every time I lost volume and ABV. Now I triple distill for clean neutral. Much less trouble, more efficient, and better product in my experience.


Yep, looks like I deviated from my usual protocol by using more wood, split smaller, heavy new char, insufficient rinse, and not checking on the progress enough. What can I say, some lessons are painful. You can bet that won't happen again.

Skol,
skow

[3d0g]

Know some here don't like it, but a pass through activated carbon will tone it down. SOP for most aged rums.

Yeah, I tried carbon filtering in my early days. Every time I lost volume and ABV. Now I triple distill for clean neutral. Much less trouble, more efficient, and better product in my experience.

Not at all saying your product is inferior. I'm saying that carbon filtering post-aging is standard industry practice with rum, to address the very issue you've experienced.

[T-Pee]

Considering the fact that I use five or six of the same sticks in a full gallon and have started to scale that back a bit and soak longer, I think you overdid it. Use less longer. Be sure to toast before charring (changes the chemistry of the stick) and allow it to work along with the aging process instead of independent of it.

My

tp

[bellybuster]

8 sticks in 3 quarts is about 7 sticks too much. That being said, remove some and let it continue to age for about 7 or 8 more months and you'll have a fine whiskey

[Saltbush Bill]

Saltbush Bill wrote:

skow69 wrote:
I had a jug of bourbon at 65% that had been on oak sticks for 5 weeks, which is pretty damn old whiskey around my house. 8 sticks, 4" x 3/4" x 1/4", half toasted, half charred. More than I usually use.


What was the volume of the jug?


About 3 qts.

Yep way to much oak is your problem. 3qts = 2.8l liters. 2 sticks that size in that amount of spirit would have been enough.
I use 1 stick 1/2 inch x 1/2 inch x 6 inches to 1 Liter and often use a little less than that. 5 weeks is a very short time to let the oak do it work.
Less oak for much longer will make a huge improvement.
Using 1 stick to the liter you can age for at least 6-8 months without over oaking. Ive yet to age anything longer than that.....but dont see a problem with doing so.

[bellybuster]

personally, I think "over oaking" is the same as saying "under aging"

[Boda Getta]

I had the same problem once when first starting out; I suggest shaking it up good, then filter a sample through a couple of coffee filters. It's possible filtering could get rid of some of the micro charcoal bits and improve the taste. If it helps, I would suggest setting it back for additional aging (8-12 months). This additional aging will help any whiskey.

Good luck.

BG

[S-Cackalacky]

personally, I think "over oaking" is the same as saying "under aging"

Belly, I think you're probably spot on with that. When you think it's gone too far, there's nothing wrong with pulling the wood and stashing it somewhere for time to do its magic.

[MichiganCornhusker]

micro charcoal bits

+1
You might be tasting a lot of suspended wood/char particles. When I let mine set for a month or two, I get quite a layer of fallout on the bottom of the jar.
Filtering, or just letting it be undisturbed for a month might make a big difference.

[T-Pee]

personally, I think "over oaking" is the same as saying "under aging"

Belly, I think you're probably spot on with that. When you think it's gone too far, there's nothing wrong with pulling the wood and stashing it somewhere for time to do its magic.

I respectfully disagree. Oaking and aging are two separate functions and should be treated as such, imnsho.
You can over-oak but you can't over-age.

tp

[S-Cackalacky]

personally, I think "over oaking" is the same as saying "under aging"

Belly, I think you're probably spot on with that. When you think it's gone too far, there's nothing wrong with pulling the wood and stashing it somewhere for time to do its magic.

I respectfully disagree. Oaking and aging are two separate functions and should be treated as such, imnsho.
You can over-oak but you can't over-age.

tp

T-Pee, I think that's exactly what we were saying. Something that you think may be over oaked can benefit from continued aging. Age has significant effect on the wood compounds dissolved/suspended in the spirits - even if the wood is removed from the spirits. Age affects the flavors of both the wood compounds and the spirits. That said, I'm not so sure it should be called age. Time may be a better term - time for the introduction of oxygen, temperature swings, pressure changes, chemical interactions/reactions, etc.. Flavors change over time whether it's white dog or oaked.

[bellybuster]

Actually, I am saying that oaking and aging should be considered the same thing. How do we explain exceptional whiskies that have spent dozens of years on oak? How about the scotches that spent 1 or 200 years on oak?
Do I think the op used too much oak? For sure. I think he should remove most of it and let it continue to oak, age, whatever for 6 or more months.
Look at white, let it sit in a jar for months, does it get better? Yes. Does it ever become anything but white dawg? Nope

[thecroweater]

Over oaking for the most part is an unbalance extraction of oak compounds caused be either too much oak, too much end grain or left to long in some distress ageing method . Mostly it is too much tannin for the volume of likker and that is because tannin is one of the more soluble components of oak

[bellybuster]

That would go against my red oak experiments.

For me, the "over Oaked" flavour is simply a stage in the aging process that tells you to wait a while longer, usually a good long while.
I would challenge someone to leave that whiskey on the obvious too much oak and see what happens. I think that given enough time it will be a fine whiskey.