Dephlegmator or dual coil condenser?

[Mashed Taters]

So I've got most of my materials together, just need to make some time to do some cutting and welding. I'm trying to decide if I want to build a dephlegmator or a condenser coil. The part (or one of them), that I can't figure out is why the take off point on a condenser is below the coils. Can someone explain this action that I can't seem to pinpoint? It seems to me that a dephlegmator would be easier to run seeing as how it is in line with the vapor path, vs. the takeoff being in between the pot and condenser.

[skow69]

Look up the different types of stills: CM, VM, and LM. The answer is beyond the scope of a single post.

[Mashed Taters]

Look up the different types of stills: CM, VM, and LM. The answer is beyond the scope of a single post.

I've read through several sections and know that I want to build a VM still. My specific question is to understand why the take off point would be between the reflux coil and the packed column, vs running an inline dephlegmator where the take off point is after after the reflux condeser? I was planning on building a 3" dephlegmator with 7-3/8" tubes, but I think it might be easier to build a dual coil reflux condenser. The difference it makes to me is whether I will weld in a bung below the reflux condenser or use my 90 degree bend with a 1/2" NPT cap after the condenser.

[Mashed Taters]

Maybe you mean shotgun or coil, both are dephlegamators when it comes to a CM

I'm wanting to run it as a VM so that I'm not messing with needle valves or baffling. I just want to have the heat source and condenser water to adjust.

[skow69]

That's the thing. If you use a dephlag and takeoff above it, it's not a VM, it's a CM. Which makes me think that you should really study some more and understand the differences before you decide which one you want.

[carbohydratesn]

Running a VM is just as difficult as running a LM still. You still need to control the same number of things - VM stills require a valve too. It's typically a much larger valve, that controls vapor flow instead of liquid, but it serves the exact same purpose.

A CM is slightly simpler in design - no product valve required, only cooling water valves - but it's still just as difficult to run.

In VM/LM, you can basically set the reflux cooling water and then forget about it. You should make minor adjustments throughout the run, but it's extremely easy. The still will tell you if you need to adjust it, just pay attention to the temperature of the cooling water and keep an eye out for escaping vapor, like you have to do with any still.

Having the condenser above the takeoff would make it a VM still. You control the amount of vapor that is allowed to travel out of the column to the takeoff, with a large valve, and the rest is pushed up to the condenser. You still need a valve for this type of still, and it needs to be adjusted, just like a LM needle valve does.

With a VM, there's actually one more thing to control than with LM. VM requires a product condenser after the takeoff. With LM, the reflux condenser plays double duty as the product condenser.

Having the condenser between the packing and the takeoff, and making the takeoff wide open at the top of the column (the elbow you mentioned) would make it a CM still. In a CM, the flow rate of the cooling water acts as the valve. Then you need a product condenser after the takeoff, like with VM - so again, there are the same number of things to control.

You're talking about different types of stills, but calling them the same thing. That's where your confusion is coming from. Listen to skow, you have some studyin' to do. It took me months to learn the basics, but it was so worth it.

If you're hoping to make the simplest, most effective still possible, you should look into CCVM designs too. It's a newer idea, where the reflux condenser acts as the VM valve. You move the condenser further into or out of the column to allow different amounts of vapor to pass to the product condenser, it removes the need for a large VM valve completely. When I can get the parts together, I'm building one of these to replace my LM.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong, everyone, I only have hands-on experience with a bok )

[Danespirit]

Don't think too much about it...
Why is the takeoff below the coils...?
Because the coil will cool your alcohol vapor and turn it into liquid...that's why....
Now the longer answer... http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p7308557
That is how it's working.
If you want a dephlagmator instead of a coil, rules of engagement are the same...but now you have to think about the diameter were your vapors are leaving...
The smallest diameter of your dephlagmator, determines your final vapor output to the product condenser.
That again means, you would have to dimention your dephlagmator to handle the vapor coming in to it, otherwise it would just be a worthless piece of tube doing nothing for you.

[still_stirrin]

Maybe you mean shotgun or coil, both are dephlegamators when it comes to a CM

I'm wanting to run it as a VM so that I'm not messing with needle valves or baffling. I just want to have the heat source and condenser water to adjust.

mr. tater,

With a VM (vapor managed) reflux still, you manage the reflux (vapor that gets condensed and returned to the boiler) by the VM valve. The vapor take off split between the product condenser (output) and reflux condenser is located ahead of the reflux condenser in the vapor path. This way, the vapor that progresses to the reflux condenser is condensed and returned down the column to continue the process. The VM can be opened up to run closer to a pot still performance, approaching a reflux ratio of 1:1.

The condenser controlled vapor managed CCVM system is different in that the "valve" is also the condenser coil (see DAD300's CCVM design). It is managed by opening and closing the vapor take off via positioning the condenser coil in the port's path.

A liquid managed LM is useful in that the liquid collection plates (ref- Bokabob) can capture the liquid condensing off the reflux condenser instead of returning it to the column and boiler. A concentric reflux condenser uses annular piping to catch the condensing liquid as well (see- RAD's concentric, a different LM design). The advantage of LM heads is that they are very good at compressing the forest and heads before you start your hearts. But they can be slow to produce through the hearts.

The combo LM/VM allows liquid management and vapor management for the reflux ratio (mass of product refluxed and returned down the column to mass of product collected).

As previously stated, each tool is different and is run differently. Each has advantages and disadvantages, depending on the product you're trying to produce and the production rate desired.
ss

[Tokoroa_Shiner]

With the parts you've got already your almost there with a simple VM still. A CCVM. With your first picture. Take the elbow off. Flip the column and put the elbow on the horizontal port on the tee. Attach your Liebig to this. Then get some corrugated stainless steel tubing and wind it in to a coil and hang it in the stainless pipe ( now the top of the still). Look up DAD300s CCVM thread for more info.

[googe]

If you want just the heat source and condenser to adjust, then you want a cm.

[Mashed Taters]

With the parts you've got already your almost there with a simple VM still. A CCVM. With your first picture. Take the elbow off. Flip the column and put the elbow on the horizontal port on the tee. Attach your Liebig to this. Then get some corrugated stainless steel tubing and wind it in to a coil and hang it in the stainless pipe ( now the top of the still). Look up DAD300s CCVM thread for more info.

This is actually how I will run, only I'll make a dual coil copper tubing condenser. Thanks for the positive feedback!

[Mashed Taters]

Don't think too much about it...
Why is the takeoff below the coils...?
Because the coil will cool your alcohol vapor and turn it into liquid...that's why....
Now the longer answer... http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p7308557
That is how it's working.
If you want a dephlagmator instead of a coil, rules of engagement are the same...but now you have to think about the diameter were your vapors are leaving...
The smallest diameter of your dephlagmator, determines your final vapor output to the product condenser.
That again means, you would have to dimention your dephlagmator to handle the vapor coming in to it, otherwise it would just be a worthless piece of tube doing nothing for you.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. There have been a few of the final pieces floated around in my head that are finally starting to fall together.

[Mashed Taters]

Maybe you mean shotgun or coil, both are dephlegamators when it comes to a CM

I'm wanting to run it as a VM so that I'm not messing with needle valves or baffling. I just want to have the heat source and condenser water to adjust.

mr. tater,

With a VM (vapor managed) reflux still, you manage the reflux (vapor that gets condensed and returned to the boiler) by the VM valve. The vapor take off split between the product condenser (output) and reflux condenser is located ahead of the reflux condenser in the vapor path. This way, the vapor that progresses to the reflux condenser is condensed and returned down the column to continue the process. The VM can be opened up to run closer to a pot still performance, approaching a reflux ratio of 1:1.

The condenser controlled vapor managed CCVM system is different in that the "valve" is also the condenser coil (see DAD300's CCVM design). It is managed by opening and closing the vapor take off via positioning the condenser coil in the port's path.

A liquid managed LM is useful in that the liquid collection plates (ref- Bokabob) can capture the liquid condensing off the reflux condenser instead of returning it to the column and boiler. A concentric reflux condenser uses annular piping to catch the condensing liquid as well (see- RAD's concentric, a different LM design). The advantage of LM heads is that they are very good at compressing the forest and heads before you start your hearts. But they can be slow to produce through the hearts.

The combo LM/VM allows liquid management and vapor management for the reflux ratio (mass of product refluxed and returned down the column to mass of product collected).

As previously stated, each tool is different and is run differently. Each has advantages and disadvantages, depending on the product you're trying to produce and the production rate desired.
ss

Thank you very much Still_Stirrin! This post has help clear up a lot of what has been cloudy. I've read and read and read, but I seem to keep missing on a few key points of the functional difference between the types of reflux operations. I'm beginning to click to specific reasons why they are called VM, CM, and LM. Yes I was slightly confused and was thinking of the VM and CM as both a VM.

[casper the Irish]

+1 on Tokoroa Shiner.

There's a good reason why he says cool with csst (flexi stainless steel) and it's not just simplicity, Mashed Taters.

Copper will catalyse precursors of a salt you don't want in the final product. Ethyl Carbamate is a carcinogen and it builds up in a reflux column as a white salt if you use a copper coil