SPP Packing

[Odin]

You are welcome! Glad to see you taking a serious approach. 2.5 liters ... you will get there. Water usage for column cooler may be up a bit, but just as long as the top part of that cooler (don't insulate that!) is still cool, you are fine. My cooling water comes out at 50 to 60 degrees C.

Odin.

[sergiolis]

Hi Odin & Co.
As i said i run some feints with some changes. I run it at 30%ABV. I cleaned first the SPP and finally I insulated the column. But it was by far my worst run

When I tried to push more than 2200W I noticed that the reflux decreased a lot. I was expecting more Reflux but it was the opposite. So I suppose the pressure of vapours going up blocked the liquid . As Dad said I think it was flooding at the top. So I guess i can't push more than 2200w....
hehehhehe that's really complicated

[Odin]

With a 2 inch column you should be able to push more. Give that column a shake so the SPP can resettle and ... please try again.

Regards, Odin.

[sergiolis]

I'll do it

[sergiolis]

I tried another run with more feints. This time:
No insulation
Resettled the SPP (loosely)
I pushed the power to 2400W
I got 44ml/min. So I'm improving
But I noticed a problem, beyond 2400W my double helix condenser can't hold the vapour and some vapour were sliping away. I think it was a problem of the condenser because the water was pretty cold but i could see vapour escaping. Maybe that enormous quantity of vapour needs another condenser....
By the way, I didn't see the liquid boiling in the sight glass so it was boiling under it during the whole run.
Thanks a lot

[DAD300]

Good show...that's over 2ltrs an hour...

We have previously discussed this to death, but I believe there must be some temp gradient between pot and takeoff. The mass of SPP transfers more heat and better than scrubbies. I no longer insulate the top half of my column to allow some gradient.

[Odin]

Hi DAD,

Bigger SPP tends to be made out of bigger diameter thread that is wounded in a more compact way. This creates more heat / energy transfer from one spring to the other. Since heat / energy transfer from iron/iron contact is more efficient than heat transferred by gasses (especially when mingling and disipitating that heat to a liquid bed) ... the springs get hotter and add to vapour speeds, instead of limiting them. To me, it may explain why taking the insulation of helps you to get better results. More cooling at the top to give you that much wanted - and needed! - temp gradient!

Regards, Odin.

[Odin]

@ Sergiolis,

If your column cooler is insufficient you may encounter liquid hold up above take off. This will create pressure issues hampering your overall performance. Liquid hold up in the column cooler may even prevent effective liquid beds to develop at top and bottom of the column, thus interfering with performance even more. I am pretty confident that if you up the cooling capacity of your column cooler, you will take another step forward!

Regards, Odin.

[sergiolis]

Yes, I'm thinking on a corrugated gas line condenser but althought i tried hard i couldn't see the specifications of Dormont tubes.
Dad300 I would be most grateful if you could tell me where to find the specs. I would like to know before buying it if is a foodgrade stainless steel 304 or 316.
Thanks in advance

[DAD300]

http://media.wattswater.com/ES-D-StationaryHose.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Specifications
Tubing..........Annealed, 304 stainless steel

Duda CSST says the same thing

I don't expect Dormont will say for food service, as they don't intend it for that, but Duda says theirs is for hot & cold potable water service. Now if we could prove they were made at the same plant.

[sergiolis]

Yes, finally i found that the dormont supr-safe series are SS304 corrosion resistant so we are fine !
I can't find anyone Who ships to spain 3/8" tube... Dad, do you think a 1/2" tube will be ok for a 2" column?
Thanks a lot for your help

[Edwin Croissant]

Potz-Blitz sells CSST in Germany and ships to Spain for ~€25.
DN8 cost €3,50 per meter, DN12 cost €2.01 per meter.
DN8 fits nicely in a 50mm tube.

More info in this thread.

[humbledore]

1/2" in a 2" column is very tight. If you have SS ferrules you can't fit three diameters of coil if you catch my meaning.

[sergiolis]

Thanks humbledore I tought that
Wonderful piece of information Edwin , I spend many hours looking for the right tube and your news were better than an old whisky in a rainy day.
I've already ordered 3m of dn8 (3/8")....
So as I read you tried that corrugated tube... How is its performance? I would like to hold off at least 2800w and my limit of distance for the condenser is 23cm...
Let's see if i can get it.....
Thanks a lot masters...

[Odin]

Total height of around 26 centimeters. I must say I never see any liquids drippng down from higher than 10 centimeters up.

Regards, Odin.

[Edwin Croissant]

So as I read you tried that corrugated tube... How is its performance? I would like to hold off at least 2800w and my limit of distance for the condenser is 23cm...
Let's see if i can get it.....

I think that 1.80 meters will fit in your 23 cm. With ss scrubbers and 15C in at the top and 50C out at the bottom and 1,64 l/min cooling water you should be able to knock down 4kW.

[sergiolis]

That's perfect, thanks a lot Odin and Edwin.

SPP is making me CRAZYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!! One run works, next run is a disaster.... But I'm very stubborn and I will keep at it.
Maybe someone of you could guide me a bit.
My next-to-last run was wonderful, I got 2400W and 44 ml/min with hearts and during the whole run i didn't see the liquid boiling at the top sight glass.
My last run was again a disaster. I charged my 30L keg with 23L of stripped Allbran. After 30 minutes equilibrium at 1750W, then, I started with foreshots at 7ml/min. When I was in hearts I tried to push the power to 2400w but suddenly (after less than 1L collected) I saw the liquid boiling in the sight-glass so I decreased the power to avoid flooding. The temp started to increase from 78.2ºC to 79ºC so I suppose I lost the equilibrium and I started to pick up tails. So i decided to turn-off the power, to wait some minutes and to start again.
Again 15 minutes of equilibrium and I started collecting but again at 1750w or less I saw the liquid boiling and the temp quickly increasing. If I reduce the power I can avoid the liquid flooding to the top of the column but even at 1500w i could see the liquid boiling and the temp increasing.
I can't see where is the problem

[skow69]

For comparison, how does it run with tightly packed scrubbies? Or lava rock?

[sergiolis]

i,ve tried scrubbies... SPP is faster and you get azeo easily, well not so easy in my case

[skow69]

How much power does it take to get flashing in the sight glass?

[sergiolis]

well that's the problem it changes a lot. As I said in the next-last run i pushed 2400W and I didn't see the bubbles. The last one at 2000w it was boiing in the sight glass and the temp suddenly increased. I'm really confused..

[skow69]

Sorry. I meant how much power does it take to get flashing in the sight glass when you are using scrubbies for packing? Or, if applicable, what is the maximum amount of power you have pushed at the scrubbies without getting flashing in the sight glass? Also what is the maximum power available?

[skow69]

Also, how big a charge are you running. Sorry if I missed that earlier.

[sergiolis]

sorry skow69, i didn't try the scrubbies with the sight glass. But the maximum power with scrubbies was 2000 or 2100. The maximum power of the heater element is 3500W.
I charging the 30L keg boiler with stripping runs between 30%ABV and 38%ABV. The last one was at 33%ABV.
Maybe I could have a leak. That's the only logical reason I can figure it out. It might be that the etanol was leaking for a while and suddenly I was in tails... but hard to say, I didn't noticed any leak
For the last run I was expecting 5 or 6L of hearts at 95%ABV but the mess happened when I had collected just about 1L of hearts.
I can't visualise the problem... Is it a problem if the SPP is wet with water of the last cleaning?

[skow69]

I think your leak theory is a good fit. The story sounds exactly like you just hit the tails early. I was going to ask if you had put a lot of feints in the charge. And how much you collected in total.

Every time I've had a leak it did exactly what you described. i'd just get out of the heads and the tails show up. And it doesn't take much of a leak to steal all your hearts.

If it happens again, instead of shutting down, try putting it back into full reflux and see if it will come back down.

Also, I would measure carefully your charge volume and ABV and calculate your expected yield. That's the best proof (after the fact) of a leak. During the run take a mirror and go around all the joints, vent, output, etc. Escaping vapor should fog the mirror.

Good luck.

[skow69]

The power thing is troubling though. As you deplete the ethanol, you should have to increase power to maintain the aquatic environment. You say you got flashing in the sight glass at 1500 watts. Mighty strange.

[Odin]

In earlier posts you talked about having column flooding. With shit shooting out of the top. My guess is you got wash in your column and (residual) sugars melted on your packing, making it bigger, limiting free space, disenabling reflux to return fast enough to the boiler. Leaking would only mean you could push more, not less. Swings in temp also indicate it. Take out the packing, put it under water and vinegar and boil it for half an hour. Then rinse with warm then cold water and repack lightly.

Don't push it in. You will have some left. It will fit the second run. But running the first time should be okay.

Regards, Odin.

[skow69]

I think you're confusing sergiolis with Norbrewer.

[sergiolis]

So I let the boiler getting cold during last night. I started the run with 23L - 33%ABV and now I have 22,5L - 31%ABV.... but i dismissed 400ml of foreshots, and I cleaned the SPP containing some alcohol too. So I think there is not a leak.
Anyway I'm going to try it right now again and I will check leaks.... But I guess is a different issue..

[Odin]

Keep 30% as your maximum boiler charge to prevent ethanol blockage near the bottom of your column.

Regards, Odin.