20 years in aging? for the hobby... Part 1

[MDH]

Yes. In some countries, 500μ flake platinum powder is added to the upper layers of carbon. If any is moved by the alcohol, the lower layer of carbon and the cellulose absorbs it. I personally do not care much for this treatment as it causes a rise in aldehydes (especially at higher temps). I would rather use ultrasonic/microwave/aeration-heat treatment and slightly alkaline water (e.g. limestone filtered).

Anyway, yes, during distillation some portion of the overall aging process can be sped up using very specific techniques and still types. As someone else pointed out here, what we are looking as it not a one step solution, but rather at combining multiple techniques to get the job done efficiently.

[kiwi Bruce]

So let say four or five treatments before oak stave maturation, or is this for white spirits primarily?

[MDH]

Both white and oaked spirits benefit from these treatments.

[S-Cackalacky]

If I wanted to add ultrasonic vibration to a stock pot aging vessel would either of these do it?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50W-40KHz-Ultra ... 0870163054" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.ebay.com/itm/60W-40KHz-Ultra ... 0870163054" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

If one or the other would work, how would it be attached? Am I chasing a phantom with this?

[kiwi Bruce]

If I wanted to add ultrasonic vibration to a stock pot aging vessel would either of these do it?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50W-40KHz-Ultra ... 0870163054" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.ebay.com/itm/60W-40KHz-Ultra ... 0870163054" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

If one or the other would work, how would it be attached? Am I chasing a phantom with this?

These are the power units that attach to the Ultrasonic SS tank. If you have a 4 X 4 X 4 inch or a 6 X 6 X 6 inch tank you can make these work. I believe these are attached with rubber cement.

It's the tank that sets up the vibration so if your stock pot is SS you should do OK. DO however put a metal shielding around the transducer. I'm a Jeweler and have one of these, but when they first came out (40 plus years ago)we were warned that without protection they could cause organ damage from the sound waves. They are most likely a hell of a lot safer now, just do a little web surfing, someone will have a how-to.

P.S. The Chicoms have one for sale on Ebay $60.55
eBay item number:
291567282242

[S-Cackalacky]

Thanks KB. I'm assuming I would need option 2 above with the transducer and the power unit for making my own with a stock pot. I'll do some searching for a how to.

[kiwi Bruce]

Keep us up to, on your progress. Do you know if we have any electrical engineers on HD?

[RedwoodHillBilly]

I r an eniginner
I'm sure that there are more E.E.s on here. What do you need? I've done power electronics (grid tied inverters) among other things.
RHB

[Bagasso]

I believe these are attached with rubber cement.

This blog and other hits on google say that they use epoxy based adhesives.

epo tek epoxy adhesives

[kiwi Bruce]

This blog and other hits on google say that they use epoxy based adhesives.

The new ones probably are, I've never taken mine apart to see.

[Bagasso]

I was just thinking that rubber cement might be too squishy and would dampen things so, I thought I would google it.

[S-Cackalacky]

I haven't even started to investigate this yet. I don't have the funds to purchase the transducer at the moment.

Just a few thoughts - I would assume that it would need to be mounted on the only flat surface of a stock pot (the bottom). This would mean that I would need to be on a stand of sorts. I also assume that the power unit would need some sort of enclosure. I also assume that the transducer would need good solid contact with the stock pot - that is, I couldn't simply mount the transducer into a cradle and set the stock pot down on it.

Anyway, I guess I'll know more as I investigate how others might have done something similar. Thanks for everyone's input on this.

[S-Cackalacky]

Well, I did some google searches and found a few things. These are the most promising -

http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-Ma ... ning-Tank/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://deiwhy.blogspot.com/2008/12/diy- ... eaner.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

All the ss stock pots I have are fairly cheap and thin gauged, but only one layer of metal which is good I guess. In the first link above, they indicate that the pot being used is thick gauge - not sure if that's a requirement, or not. Since our application is quite a bit different, I wonder how critical the thickness of the pot actually is.

There were also several versions using palm sanders strapped to various containers. These seemed to be mostly used for cleaning auto engine parts. It's my understanding that these wouldn't deliver the desired wavelength for our purposes.

Anyway that's were I am with this. It's looking like it may be a fairly simple build.

[Tomb]

What about this cheap item?

http://t.harborfreight.com/ultrasonic-cleaner-3305.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They also have a higher powered unit.

Tom

[S-Cackalacky]

Tom, that's a good price, but it says that it's only 1 pint. It also says it's stainless steel, but the photo looks more like plastic, or maybe that's just an insert.

What I intend to build is more than just an ultrasonic cleaning unit. It will have other process elements incorporated into it. It needs to be heated - maybe a brew belt. It needs and aerator incorporated - maybe an aquarium pump. it will need a way to reflux - a baseboard heater element (think air cooled). It will need to be sealed airtight with the exception of the reflux outlet. All these processes will go on simultaneously - controlled by simple timers and a temp controller. I would also like for it to have at least a two gallon capacity.

I can visualize how it should be constructed, but it will cost a chunk of change that I don't currently have. It could take months to accumulate all the parts and build it. I also have other build projects currently in the works or planned. I wouldn't be offended if someone else would like to try making this contraption. At this point, it's untested/unproven technology. It's just an attempt to incorporate some of the techniques already being used into a single unit.

[MDH]

Your exact idea has not yet been done, but you may want to try taking a look at patents filed by the Terressentia company in SC. They have been using ultrasonic aging and aeration since 2006.

[kiwi Bruce]

I'm not sure if these are true ultrasonic cleaners, they may call them ultrasonic but I think they just use regular sound waves. The good ones had a SS tube and not plastic, which is a poor sound conductor. I'd need to see one.

[kiwi Bruce]

I think this would work well.

[S-Cackalacky]

KB, that looks like the one from the first link I posted earlier. When I do this, I think I will take a chance on using just one transducer positioned in the middle of the bottom of the pot.

A question for those who have used utrasonic cleaners - If you have pets, dogs in particular, are they affected by the high frequency sound?

[RedwoodHillBilly]

My dog isn't bothered by it. It is 40W at 44KHz, and she doesn't give me any indication that she even notices it.

[Bagasso]

I had forgotten that they sell submersible transducers.

A tank might be a good idea when wanting to clean parts but since we are looking to shake up the liquid itself then slap a transducer in a tube and lower the tube into the pot. Won't have to worry about the guage or adhesives.

[S-Cackalacky]

I had forgotten that they sell submersible transducers.

A tank might be a good idea when wanting to clean parts but since we are looking to shake up the liquid itself then slap a transducer in a tube and lower the tube into the pot. Won't have to worry about the guage or adhesives.

That sounds interesting. I'll see if I can search out the submersible transducer. Meanwhile, if you have a link to one, please post it up.

[Bagasso]

Here is an example:
http://www.mpi-ultrasonics.com/content/ ... ransducers

ETA: Here is a link wich shows a cross section of an ultrasonic transducer. Looking at it it is really just bolted together. I also have seen a threaded hole in the bottom of some of them, like the cross section, which means that you could bolt it to your tank or, in the dip version, screw a rod onto one.

http://www.ctgclean.com/tech-blog/2012/ ... -hardware/

[S-Cackalacky]

Thanks for those links Bagasso. I think I have a lot more research to do to make sure I get things right. The info for the submersible transducers is a little confusing. The example illustrations in your first link reference a 1300W control unit. The submersible transducers I found on ebay also seem to come in a variety of frequencies. Most of the controllers for the external units are anywhere from about 50W to 100W and the transducers are typically 40KHz. I'll do some reading in the other "20 year" thread and see if I can figure out what the optimum frequency should be.

About your second link and the threaded attachment option - I also saw that referenced in one of the DIY build links I previously posted. It talked about drilling a hole in the bottom of the vessel and using a bolt to attach the transducer. That would be an alternative to using epoxy adhesive. I guess the issue would be finding one that's already tapped.

I hope I'm not monopolizing this thread. Some of the processes I was hoping to use seem to have morphed into something a bit more complex.

[Bagasso]

The first link is just to get an idea of the design.

Just found out that some designs keep the transducer outside and use an extention that dips into the liquid called a horn.

Here is an image of that kind of set up.
http://image.slidesharecdn.com/ultrason ... 1231811517

Another thing to think about is that microwaves cause water to vibrate at 2.45 ghz. That's ultrasonic and heating at the same time.

[S-Cackalacky]

I knew that about the microwave, but not the wave frequency. I've been doing my initial nuke cycle on low power. I don't know if that changes the wave frequency, but I do it for a longer exposure to the microwaves. Many microwave ovens cycle at lower settings. but mine, I think, actually controls the power level. I run it at about 20% power. Instead of nuking on high for 3 minutes, I nuke at a lower setting for 15 minutes. The idea being that it will be vibrated for a longer time. This gets a 3/4 full quart jar up to about 150 dF. I've mostly been doing it for the vacuum effect for extracting the wood compounds.

I think I'll start an experiment to see how effective the microwaves can be. I have an apple brandy run coming up in the next couple of weeks. I'll do the initial nuke oaking as usual, rest it for awhile and do some additional nuke cycles without the vacuum and without the wood. Might give some insight into how the contraption might work. Instead of the reflux, I'll just keep some extra heads in it to feed to the angels.

[Bagasso]

I knew that about the microwave, but not the wave frequency.

The frequency stays the same but the heat and the jiggle, at least with microwaves, are interdependent.

[hertzbier]

This is a great thread, looking forward to seeing what comes out of it. S-Cack, feel free to contact me, I have a plethora of ultrasonic generators, transducers, etc, and a long history of know-how to put it all together. Happy to help if I can. I actually ran some small experiments with 80 ABV vodka and dark toasted wood chips in an ultrasonic bath (40khz power transducer)...the color change (extraction) was immense after 30 minutes.

Like many, I've also been trying to innovate around accelerated aging (full disclosure: I am part of a startup trying to bring technology to market for this. I am not here to sell anyone anything though, just wanting to join the conversation and request some feedback). I posted some work we did in our earliest stages on this site about a year ago, and we've actually got standalone units now, early success at a local distillery, devices in real barrels, etc.

We've recently been aging white rum in two #4 char 5G barrels, one with our device and the other as a control. So far so good. After 6 weeks they don't look or taste like they come from the same batch.

Wish I had enough to distribute around, but since that's not gonna happen, I'm just curious what you all would do to verify & quantify acceleration (beyond the reward of simply enjoying it)? Certainly color alone won't suffice, nor will my biased taste buds. We're leaning towards pulling together GC-MS samples, but even then there are a bunch of different things to test for. Any thoughts or feedback are welcomed. If youre curious, feel free to check out what we've been up to on our website (http://www.hertzbier.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow), there are plenty of pics and movies there.

Thanks! Cheers!

[NZChris]

It's good to see you here, hertzbier.

The toughest test might be fast aging already aged product. There are lots of ways of speeding up the process of making oak tea with your likker, but that test should sort out if you really are 'aging'.

[MDH]

Hertzbier, I am not asking in a rhetorical way when I say this: How much of these threads have you read?

Aging indeed involves color change, but it is also chemical reactions between the compounds extracted from oak, and the spirit itself, as time progresses. Simply extracting oak is a small part of the process.

We can confirm at least five things happen during aging AFTER the oak has been extracted into the spirit.

1. Increased temperature during warm seasons speeds up all chemical reactions. Having warm temperatures present for as long as possible is best, but too high of a temperature will actually reverse these reactions. B. Davis' invention holds the spirit at ~60 celcius for as long as a week. Two examples of a spirit naturally aged at high temperatures are Kavalan and Amrut. (To read more, look up Dr. Jim Swan, who is a well known and respected consultant on this topic in the industry).

2. These reactions are acids and alcohols producing esters, tannins reacting with spirit, aromatic hydrocarbons converting to acids which then also react with spirit, etc. The more time the merrier with this, as these compounds which form over time are responsible for the hazelnut, caramel, pleasant aromas of older Scottish spirits we all enjoy.

3. The barrels have "respiration" during prolonged temperature swings. The liquid acts like a buffer during day/night cycle to some extent, so three days of strong heat, and then three days of much cooler temperature will cause this the most.

4. Gradual evaporation occurs; air enters the barrel gradually as well, this allows the "Angel's share" to evaporate unpleasant compounds such as acetone over time

5. Oxidation, last but not least, assists in the breakdown of oak compounds and oxidation of some parts of the spirit into more acids, which then react with the spirit.

I am not questioning your obvious desire to rapidly age spirits, I'm more questioning the integrity of the method you are using. Yes, you can "Vibrate" the color out of the oak, but then what? You've got a highly woody tasting spirit which still needs a good three years or more in order to begin tasting like something people would want to drink.