Jimbo's Electric Conversion

[HDNB]

It also shorts out without even connecting to the element right now.

what does?

[raketemensch]

If I just plug in my box, as described, and as it is in that picture, it throws the circuit on the main panel for the whole sub panel, without being connected to the element, with the 3 wires for the element safely distant from each other.

[HDNB]

so you disconnected the red one from the scr and took the wire nut off the dryer cable to the black wire?
and then plugged it in and the breaker dropped?

did you disco the bare ground that has a wire nut on it? i can't see in the photo what it is connected to....

maybe you crushed wires in the strain relief....


disconnect from the wall. does the breaker stay intact?
if yes, disconnect the dryer extension wire from all the shit in the box. plug it in without letting any of the 3 wires touch anything. does the breaker stay intact?
if yes, check the wires (carefully) and find the two that have 240vac between them. THEN UNPLUG IT. hook one of those two wires directly to the element and the other to the scr. don't hook up the 3rd wire from the dryer cord (yet)
plug it in...DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING ESPECIALLY THE KEG does the breaker stay intact?
if yes, UNPLUG IT AGAIN.

Make sure the element is covered in water
connect a wire from the the other port on the SCR to the other side of the element.
plug it in...DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING ESPECIALLY THE KEG does the breaker stay intact?

if yes, UNPLUG IT AGAIN and connect the ground wire (the remaining 3rd wire from the dryer cord) to the keg.
plug it in...DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING ESPECIALLY THE KEG does the breaker stay intact?

if yes, turn up the potentiometer and see if it heats up.

[FreeMountainHermit]

Can you anyone help me answer my original question about what to do with the neutral wire coming from the dryer plug?

raketemensch, if I may jump in here for a moment, please.

Hope this helps you, jackspratski.

Bolt the neutral to the keg in a safe and secure manner.

[Jimbo]

Jack, note the picture from FreeMountain is for an SSR. An SCR is not wired the same in relation to your HOT1 and HOT2.

To your quesiton, Neutral + either Hot will make 120. If you have a 120 power supply for a fan, or any 120 accesories, youll need it otherwise not. Do you have 4 wire dryer or 3 wire? Make sure the keg is grounded.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Bolt the neutral to the keg in a safe and secure manner.

The diagram is wrong. The green wire should be labeled GND (or more properly Protective Earth). Many people are confused between Gnd and Neutral. Just because that they are bonded together in the panel doesn't mean that they are the same thing. Neutral is allowed to carry current in normal operation. Gnd should only carry current in a fault condition. The reason that you ground exposed metal is so that in a fault condition, like a heater failure that might energize the keg, the ground connection will protect against that and hopefully trip the over current device (breaker). So that being said, the above should read "Bolt the ground to the keg in a safe and secure manner."

tl;dr Neutral and Ground aren't the same. Don't carry current with ground, don't use neutral for protection.

I should add that if you have a 3 wire 240v plug, the 3 wires will be L1, L2 & Gnd. The 3rd wire will be Gnd, not neutral. Don't use it to get 120v from L1 or L2.

[raketemensch]

I should add that if you have a 3 wire 240v plug, the 3 wires will be L1, L2 & Gnd. The 3rd wire will be Gnd, not neutral. Don't use it to get 120v from L1 or L2.

This is what confuses the hell out of me. It doesn't come into play in my situation, it's just a quandary in the back of my mind.

If I *was* using 4-wire, to use that neutral wire for 120 for fans or something, wouldn't I also be powering it off the same bar as that ground wire?

[HDNB]

not so much "powering" but connected to the same bus bar at the panel. the white neutral wire is designed to provide a path to ground for the motor in the tool you are working with.
when the tool is being used, there can be voltage present here.

the bare wire ground or earth ground is a protective "covering" over the neutral (and the hot) as the final barrier between you and the electricity.

because neutrals can have many loads on one wire, turning on any one of the loads can introduce voltage to the neutral. (think one breaker that has 5 light switches and lights on it...if you turn on just one of the lights and then unscrewed one of the bulbs in one of the fixtures that is not turned on and then stuck your finger in it...you could (likely)be shocked...don't try it-just trust me on this one- even though the light in that socket was not "on")
if you were an easier path to ground than the wire, you would get shocked if you touched it. the bare ground wire is intended to prevent you from being the easiest path.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

I should add that if you have a 3 wire 240v plug, the 3 wires will be L1, L2 & Gnd. The 3rd wire will be Gnd, not neutral. Don't use it to get 120v from L1 or L2.

This is what confuses the hell out of me. It doesn't come into play in my situation, it's just a quandary in the back of my mind.

If I *was* using 4-wire, to use that neutral wire for 120 for fans or something, wouldn't I also be powering it off the same bar as that ground wire?

Ok, let me explain. Neutral is called a "grounded conductor". Neutral is bonded to ground in the panel. Neutral is allowed to carry current. Ground is just used to carry fault currents. Don't forget that you can be at ground potential just by touching something like a water pipe. There will be a potential between neutral and ground if you are pulling current through the neutral. This due to voltage drop across the neutral wire and connectors from the load to the panel. If the wires and connectors had zero resistance this wouldn't be the case.

There are also other fault conditions that can raise the neutral to the hot potential. i.e. an open neutral. You wouldn't want to be the thing that completes the neutral side of the circuit when you touch the boiler and a water pipe. BTW a GFCI will detect this condition and interrupt the circuit.

[masonsjax]

I think the main source of confusion is that neutral and ground are electrically the same thing as far as the electrons coming from the panel are concerned. Electricity doesn't care what color the shield around it's path is, or if there is a shield or if the shield has hair and skin. Green for ground vs a neutral wire is a convention that's designed to protect humans from becoming part of the circuit, nothing more.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Not quite. At the panel they are at the same potential. At the load they aren't if the load is drawing current or there is a fault.

[masonsjax]

If the convention is followed. They both have the potential to be used to power the load, or act as ground depending on whether convention is followed or not. Hence the confusion.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

From some research online, it looks like if I test a one hot pole to the other, I should get 240. I don't.

It also shorts out without even connecting to the element right now.

I just noticed something in this post. It sounds like you have some "Bourbon wiring" (wired by drunks on the weekend). The 1st thing that I would do is see how the plug is wired. Would you measure the following 3 voltages at the plug (with nothing plugged in) please.

L1 - L2 (should be 240v)
L1 - gnd (should be 120v)
L2 - gnd (should be 120v)

This should allow us to diagnose the problem. When we bought this house, I found that the guy who had too much bourbon when wiring was confused between hot and neutral, neutral and ground, and in one case hot and ground . I also found a couple of places where he switched neutral instead of hot. I won't even talk about not knowing how 3 way switches and the traveler worked.

[raketemensch]

Thanks, I checked the outlet I wired into the sub-panel, and I get 120, 120 and 240 as expected. Tonight I'm going to un-wire the box, check the same readings on the dryer cord, and mark the wires red/black/green with a sharpie, since they're all gray right now.

Once I get that done and I have some time (4 day weekend!), I'm going to run through HDNB's steps above.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Excellent. It seems that you have a handle on it. FWIW, I would also do resistance checks on the element (same as the plug, i.e. no continuity between L1 or L2 and gnd, and resistance between L1 & L2). If all checks out, try to eliminate the controller as a problem source. Just wire the element direct and see if all works. Damn it now you got me thinking about this. That's the problem with being an engineer, I gotta have resolution to a problem

edit: If I had to guess, I bet that you miss wired the dryer cord.
edit2: It is hard to see from your picture, but it almost looks like you have L1 & gnd swapped in the box. L1 (black) from dryer cord to gnd (bare wire to element). Hard to tell from that picture.

[Swedish Pride]

Just put the controller to the test for the first time, works an absolute charm.
got 20 l vinegar water up to steam in 25min, very responsive control as well, two seconds after turning the control up or down the stream responded.
Cant wait to do a sac run and move on to running keepers in this one.



thanks for all the help!

[S-Cackalacky]

Awesome dude! With a working controller and a fantastic new still, you must be on cloud nine.

[Swedish Pride]

Thanks SC shuffed to bits alright, can't wait to start running proper batches.
should make it easier to build up some stock

[HDNB]

Awesome dude! With a working controller and a fantastic new still, you must be on cloud nine.

And with access to native irish peat. <mr. jelly.

[Swedish Pride]

Awesome dude! With a working controller and a fantastic new still, you must be on cloud nine.

And with access to native irish peat. <mr. jelly.

Yeah i think a smoker is whats next in line to be built

Thanks for your help in getting the controller up and running , really glad I took your advice on the on and off switch

[RedwoodHillBilly]

If the convention is followed. They both have the potential to be used to power the load, or act as ground depending on whether convention is followed or not. Hence the confusion.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, but if you don't follow conventions ( the code - NEC) I wouldn't want to buy your house, and somebody will have to correct the problems. i.e. carrying current (neutral) on a bare wire that can short to conduit.

[raketemensch]

IT'S ALIVE!!!!!

Everything seemed to be wired up properly all along, both to me, and to everyone reading it. I sat down and inspected everything this morning. Three wires don't take very long to inspect, and they all looked right. But something was shorting out, even with no load on the other end.

What I did differently:

1) I cut 8 inches off the end of the dryer cord, and started again. There was no exposed copper, but screw it. I did it anyway.
2) I went to Lowes and picked up some 3/4 EMT set screw connectors to give the wires more room where they entered the box. They were jammed in there pretty tight before, the ones I had left over from other projects were too small.

I plugged in the "new" dryer cord, the wires tested out fine. I wired everything up in the box, plugged it in, and the wires at the other end for the element tested out fine.

I put ~6 gallons of water in the keg, wired up the element, cringed, plugged it in... and it worked. I let it run for an hour or so, the house could use a little humidity anyway.

So I have a whole day off tomorrow, and a working 220v boiler keg. If only I had something ready to run

[Jimbo]

Hot damn. Congrats man! About flippin time you figgered it out. Sounds like a sneaky damn short somewhere. Prolly 1 damn strand of hundreds. Don't take much.

[S-Cackalacky]

We should all now sing a verse of the Hallelujah Chorus in Raket's honor.

[FreeMountainHermit]

Congratulations raket, I've been watching your troubles from the beginning and was wondering when you were going to just start pulling hair out of your head. Your patience is astounding.

[HDNB]

i'm so happy i have no words

[raketemensch]

You guys rock. So does a 35-minute startup time.

I wired up input and exhaust fans, mounted the SCR properly, and cut out some big holes for the fans. I just need to mount them, but for now I'm back to family time. Maybe tomorrow.

[masonsjax]

If the convention is followed. They both have the potential to be used to power the load, or act as ground depending on whether convention is followed or not. Hence the confusion.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, but if you don't follow conventions ( the code - NEC) I wouldn't want to buy your house, and somebody will have to correct the problems. i.e. carrying current (neutral) on a bare wire that can short to conduit.

Relax man, we're in agreement here. I'm just making an observation about why people that are delving for the first time into electricity are confused. I'm not talking about seasoned electricians deciding to do something stupid.

[Diesel410]

Hey yall I will be doing my electric conversion soon and I was wondering if this will work welded to the side of my keg? I will be using the same element jimbo uses
http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.ph ... duct_id=57" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[S-Cackalacky]

Yes, I think others have used that for their element connection. You could screw in a piece of pipe or a nipple to make sure it stays centered while you solder it. Another option would be an NPS welding spud.