Longhorn barrel question

Post by **cranky** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:36 pm

My wife just gave me an early Christmas present a couple of brand new 3 liter white oak barrels made by Longhorn Barrels
http://longhornbarrels.com/longhorn-oak-barrels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OK0 ... ge_o02_s00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I did a search and nothing comes up for these on the site so I thought I'd ask while she can still send them back.
Anybody have experience with these? I know the size is small and that's not really an issue to me, they are toasted American White oak with medium char but seem to have been coated with something like a lacquer, at least that's what it smells like. The smell of lacquer is much stronger when you take the bung out making me concerned that it will contaminate the spirits used in it. She bought these on Amazon and they have good reviews but I'm still concerned because of that smell.

Anyway just thought I'd get some input from you guys. Should I send them back and keep aging on sticks or follow the cleaning protocols that came with it to rinse the outside for several minutes then fill with water and rinse and fill every day until it is sealed?

Post by **pythonshine** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:22 pm

I have no experiance with them but i would keep one test it then give us your feedback. I imagine it is info that will help many out seeing as there are many who would see/buy them. The added info on a site with a rep like this one would steer people to or from these depending on your result and maybe it would save some less experienced a mistake that could potentaly harm them or others. Lacquer is not something to be taken lighly as you know already.

Post by **cranky** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:32 am

I've been pondering on this most of the evening and think I can't bring myself to use these barrels. I would not trust the liquor out of them just because of the smell inside the barrel. If the inside smells like lacquer I feel it is contaminated and you could never get that out of it to a level I would find acceptable. I saw that link you posted on that other thread ( http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p7368274 ) and those people had this to say

wrote:--Varnish on the outside is optional. Applying varnish on the outside helps protect the wood from stains and is good if you want more of a decorative item.

--None varnish barrels are better for aging as it allows the wood to breathe which is essential to properly realease oaky flavor and color to the contents.

So they are going back tomorrow and I will live with sticks or find some barrels that don't have varnish or laquer. There is a guy not far from me that has full size wine barrels for only $110. Maybe I will get one and make a couple of my own barrels out of them.

Post by **pythonshine** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:20 am

A wise choice if i do day so myself.....and i do. From what I hear it is quite the feat to make your own barrels. A skill I wish I had to be sure. I think I will stick to welding.

flyweed · Post by **flyweed** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:26 am

instead of sending them back..why don't you just char them (burn them) on the inside, that's what many whiskey, wine makers do to the insides of their barrels. Char imparts a nice color and flavor to many alcohols.

Post by **yakattack** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:43 am

We all understand that charing a barrel is good. But due to the lacor being applied this is not an option to solve the problem. The lacor even burnt will still leave chemical traces and is not safe from a food perspective.

I with cranky on this one. I'd send them back.

Post by **pythonshine** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:31 am

Even with my original post I have to whole heartedly agree with yak, now that I think of it, there is no way that it could be considered safe. No mater if it the smallest trace I think Cranky hit it on the nose, it is unacceptable.....look at that... learning every day

Post by **Bushman** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:37 am

+1 the oak in barrel form is more expensive than just cutting white oak for sticks is another reason to send them back. Before returning you might want to call them and make sure the laquer isn't just on the outside. The pricing is way better than a lot of the ones I have seen on the market.

Post by **moered** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:38 am

can you contact the company and ask them directly?

Post by **cranky** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:59 am

I have contacted the company but regardless of what they say the inside of the barrels smell like lacquer. Even if they say it is only on the outside the smell being on the inside means fumes are inside permeating into the wood. So I could never bring myself to be absolutely sure they are what I would consider safe so they are going back.

The barrels online link ( http://www.barrelsonline.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ) provided by pythonshine in another thread has them around the same price and they don't lacquer unless you request it.

A few years ago I bought a really nice and superbly made oval barrel that had never been drilled. I got it really cheap and thought about using that but profit got the better of me and I sold it for a lot of money to a lady that wanted to put her husbands ashes in it. I kind of wish I had drilled it and boroscoped it and kept it.

My wife says we should start a section just for wives to spell out what it is we want when we want things like barrels and equipment.

Post by **Bushman** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:43 am

cranky wrote: My wife says we should start a section just for wives to spell out what it is we want when we want things like barrels and equipment.

I get my list from others here along with my own suggestions, do the research and then make my Christmas list for family members with exact links to what I want. Cranky make sure your wife feels appreciated as she was doing the right thing by purchasing what she thought you would want.

Post by **cranky** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:51 am

Bushman wrote:
cranky wrote: My wife says we should start a section just for wives to spell out what it is we want when we want things like barrels and equipment.
I get my list from others here along with my own suggestions, do the research and then make my Christmas list for family members with exact links to what I want. Cranky make sure your wife feels appreciated as she was doing the right thing by purchasing what she thought you would want.

She knows I would never ask for something like a barrel even though I want one. In fact I ask for very little if anything for Christmas, mostly because I don't really need anything and I am cheap. I get about $90 a year from Bing and that is my operating budget.

Shavedwolf · Post by **Shavedwolf** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:41 am

I actually just got the 5 liter long horn barrel, I have the same smell you are describing. It smells similar to lacquer, but I'm not quite sure that is what it is. The lacquer on the outside is a very thin coat, I can't see it seeping thru into the inside and leaving such a strong odor. I believe what we are smelling is the char on the inside. I am no oak expert but I think that's what it is. Have you filled yours with water yet? I might try that to see if the odor mellows out.

Post by **MichiganCornhusker** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:53 am

I think a big part of the way spirits age in barrels is the way they breath. Sealing the outside surface of the barrel with any finish would affect this.

Shavedwolf · Post by **Shavedwolf** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:42 am

After further inspection of my 5 liter longhorn barrel, I was able to get a scope light into the bunghole to peer inside. From what I can see the barrel is charred pretty well but the ends of the barrel on each side seem to have glue that poured in, doesn't look like lacquer. Looks like they glue the lid pieces together. Sadly I will be returning mine, if the 3 liter has a similar smell as mine, I'm sure the craftsmanship is the same..

You'd think they would be smart enough not to use glue on something that will be used to carry a liquid for human consumption, apparently not. Since this barrel was around $80, I will get a refund and buy from a different seller.

Anyone got some good suggestions?

Post by **cranky** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:08 pm

I have never owned a new barrel so I don't know what it should smell like but I would think char would small like burnt wood, not paint. but I would like a reference for somebody reputable.

cob · Post by **cob** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:49 pm

cranky sending it back is a good choice off gassing of the coating will taint your hard earned spirits.

if I was in the market for a barrel I would buy from http://www.tuthilltown.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow they sell new and used

biggest point is they are a distillery and use barrels for their product. as opposed to many barrel sellers

who's product is the barrel like these guys I found advertising on craigslist in our corner of wa. http://blueridgemountainspirits.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

barrel as a product or barrel user selling their surplus. the more time and energy put into selling the less time and energy there is for quality.

kiwi Bruce · Post by **kiwi Bruce** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:45 pm

Hi Cranky, I've done this before on a five gallon keg a buddy and I went halves on. Here is my take. The barrel needs to be conditioned. It's not hard to do and if you don't like the results you can still send it back. Put a quart of room temp tap water into the barrel and shake it around, let it sit for five minutes shake it around again and empty. Fill the barrel with room temp tap water and let it sit for an hour then empty it. Put a quart of very hot (not boiling) water in the barrel. Repeat the above procedure with very hot water, Just be careful. After it's empty you'll see that the water smells of tannin. Repeat the procedure with room temp water again to cool the barrel down. Let it sit over night, 10 to 12 hours. Empty it, now smell it. If you don't like the smell now, send it back, because after the next step in the procedure I don't know if they'll take it back.
So lets say you've decided it now smells OK and your going to keep it, the next step is to do the same procedure using low value, 60% or higher ABV spirit, like a sugar wash spirit. Put a quart of spirit in the barrel shake it around, let it sit for five minutes and do it again. Let it sit on the spirit over night, next morning shake it around again, let it sit for five minutes and do it again. Empty out the spirit and save it. From this point forward you have to keep liquid in the barrel, water, spirit or a low spirit-water mix that can't mold. If you don't, the barrel could dry-out and leak.

Post by **cranky** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:57 pm

I don't want to sound like I don't value the input because I do but here is my messed up thinking.

I looked at Tuthilltown and their little barrels look exactly like the ones I got and they don't give many details about them. They look like they have been sealed to be used mostly for display. Once used barrels I could get just down the road at Woodinville Whiskey. Both options are a lot of money for something that is just making due.

I know this will probably sound funny to you guys but I don't want a barrel that has already been used because to me the next few products put through it taste too much like what has already been in it. I want a barrel or two for apple brandy since I have taken extreme pains this year to do my brandy as close french Calvadose way as possible. Ideally It would be less than 5 gallons, made out of French oak that has already been used for a red wine or port and toasted only, then I would have to use it on some other brandies or even neutral to make it not impart too much flavor. Only then would I be willing to put my precious apple brandy in it to age a nice long time.

I know, sounds obsessive compulsive

but that is why making my own barrels out of a used wine barrel is appealing. I could get the french oak I want that way but it would be a lot of work I really don't have time or motivation to do.

I think I could make do with a small unused barrel treating it much the same as above with neutral and or brandy before progressing to the apple brandy, but I am not willing to not be picky about the barrel. So to get what I truly want would be pretty difficult or costly and I just don't want one that has been used for somebody else's product already. That pretty much leaves me using sticks or maybe buying from barrelsonline because they actually put details about their barrels on their website and say they only lacquer on request.

NOTE posting same time a Kiwi Bruce

Post by **cranky** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:59 pm

KB I know it needs properly conditioned before using but the barrel needs to be right before I do that. See post above

kiwi Bruce · Post by **kiwi Bruce** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:20 pm

cranky wrote:KB I know it needs properly conditioned before using but the barrel needs to be right before I do that. See post above

Have a look at these...
http://www.barrelsonline.com/showproduct.aspx?ID=26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

it's your call cranky, remember the old saying "If it feels wrong :- it is" trust your gut (in this case your nose

)

Post by **cranky** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:52 pm

Thank you KB. Those were the ones I was considering.

cob · Post by **cob** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:14 pm

cranky; the last word in my post is the most important. you know what you want to achieve and how you want to achieve it

your golden. with the kind of care you are putting into this you should have a fine drop. best of luck.

Post by **pythonshine** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:18 pm

Well if you do get a barrel from barrelsonline Cranky, let me know what you think. I am looking at getting one once I feel I am skilled enough to produce a good drop worth barrel aging for a long while.

Post by **cranky** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:28 pm

pythonshine wrote:Well if you do get a barrel from barrelsonline Cranky, let me know what you think. I am looking at getting one once I feel I am skilled enough to produce a good drop worth barrel aging for a long while.

I'll do that

I will say the seller of the barrels emailed me back right away and said they do come varnished and the smell was just because it was wrapped in plastic while shipping and would dissipate with proper conditioning but understands if I want to send them back. No hassles with that at all. but as I said, because the fumes are inside the barrel I will never be able to trust them. Other people might but if I go with any others I will make sure they come unvarnished.

Post by **pythonshine** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:34 pm

Thank you kindly. Yeah if the fumes come from the inside...not worth it i agree. Good to hear they are understanding and, at least from first impression, easy to work with.

Post by **Copper Thumper** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:13 am

Can you remove the fill hole and shine a flashlight inside and take a peek?

Some of the cheaper barrels have a wax coating inside where they were tested for leaks and failed. The barrels might not even be usable anyway- let alone the laquer on the outside.

If you can't tell through the hole, you might have to take it partially apart.

As suggested previously, call the manfactuer. If not them the reseller and just ask, although you might not get a straight answer.

The laquer should not seep enough to effect being able to age spirits, as it is only a surface coating. If it penetrated in between the staves it's due to poor construction and I wouldn't use any of them.

Post by **cranky** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:46 am

They are packed up and ready to go back. Maybe I will go ahead and try one from barrelsonline maybe not. I can get french oak heads for $15 locally and I have some well aged apple branches and japanese maple to make sticks out of plus Bear gave me a couple JD staves so it's not like they are really necessary. So I guess we will see

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