Live Dunder in Fermentation

[Johnnywhiskey]

Who adds live dunder to their washes? Before, during or after the bulk of the fermentation? And catastrophic failures?

I've done a couple of batches of rum using moderately ripe dunder but I have always done a quick boil with the dunder and molasses before pitching the yeast. My theory was that I was getting the benefit of the wild yeast and bacteria esters and organic acids without the unpredictability of a wild fermentation. But I'm working up the courage to add live dunder at the beginning (or end of the fermentation) to see magic might happen when the wild critters get into the wash.

Best, JW

[Rastus]

well JW I am going to watch this thread as i have been having discussion with another member on this very topic. it seems a little of the black arts involved in an odd way and i worry about any bad juju bugs that may cause my legs to get more bowed and my eyes to go crossed...

but seriously i have been just making do with back set from my run and knowing the Dunder pit is something i dont know enough about and i wouldnt know the good ot the bad as things develop. just today i started my first batch of kombutcha and there is plenty of illustrations on how healthy and unhealthy cultures look for that ... but the mysterious Dunder Pit, there is less documentation.
so i am glad you got this thread going.

now i will shut up and watch

[Monkeyman88]

I chuck it in before fermentation starts.

[NZChris]

I chuck it in before fermentation starts.

Have you had any dead ferments?

[Monkeyman88]

Yes, but I suspect it was due to ph issues from not adjusting after adding the dunder.

[BoomTown]

so for us non rum people, what is 'dunder'?

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

so for us non rum people, what is 'dunder'?

Oh boom, lol

It's back set. That's what they call it. But, they also store it indefinitely in a container, usually outside, so it gets all narley. You take from the clear middle, and keep replacing after your run.

You ever make that friendship bread? That's the process with rum back set. Adds complexity.

[firewater69]

I have done it both ways, at first I boiled my dunder then I got brave and I add it live at the beginning now. I always add a couple of muscle shells to help with the ph, so far so good. edit: I also always pitch a good starter of bakers yeast.

[Johnnywhiskey]

Cool, you have emboldened me to give live dunder a shot, keeping an eye on the PH. How bad could it go wrong? My wife still reminds me of my last brewing misadventure which she nicknamed the "fart-mentation." I just pulled some old dunder out of my freezer and I need to let it ripen up before it is ready to go.

I've been using a hefeweizen-style yeast (bananas and cloves) to generate a little extra funk in the primary fermentation. As a plan B, I was thinking about using a lambic blend yeast starter that has a mix of the common wild critters--Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus, and Pediococcus. I'll have to try that as an experiment some time.

-JW

[Rastus]

so if i am out of place correct me...

you take the backet, set it in a open container and leave it outside. the natural bacteria and yeasties will get into it and the mold? and it will form a head of sorts? but under that floatilla of living spongie Dunder is the clear fluids to extract? and set it into your next ferment. after running the ferment you replace the removed nectar with new backset.
hope i am following it correct.

if that is correct then i wonder about us guys where the cold temps are dropping Below ZeRo can we do it in the mechanical room? with some cheesecloth over it? and what size of dunder container is optimal for a 10 - 12 gallon fermenter? and also is glass/ ceramic or metal preferred? will plastic effect it?

sorry so darn many questions but it seems the right time to hit it and clarify some things for us less informed on the topic.

thanks

[Johnnywhiskey]

you take the backet, set it in a open container and leave it outside. the natural bacteria and yeasties will get into it and the mold? and it will form a head of sorts? but under that floatilla of living spongie Dunder is the clear fluids to extract? and set it into your next ferment. after running the ferment you replace the removed nectar with new backset.
hope i am following it correct.

Yea, kind of scary ain't it?

I live far from the frigid netherlands but its cool enough in Nor. Cal. that I use an electric heat wrap to maintain a semi-topical temperature for my dunder. Home dunder pits aren't much of a science, but my guess is that 80-90f is a good temp to keep the microbs fired up. A bit cooler is probably ok if you have more time. But below 65f not much is going to happen.

[Monkeyman88]

Mine just sits in my shed. It gets warm. It gets cold. It's all mouldy and full of sand flies. But it smells pretty damn good. 60L plastic barrel with a tap about 1/4 the way up for drawing the good stuff from the middle.

[Rastus]

thanks for the info there... so i guess i could dedicate a beer fermenter bucket with a tap in it , but maybe in summer its just to dang cold right now had to thaw out some frozen water pipes today. lucky none burst.

[NZChris]

Dunder culture is not too dissimilar from a cheese culture. You can infect it with known flora, leave it open to be infected totally randomly by your environment, or use some tricks like a swab from a vagina or armpit. Temperature is important. Don't expect to culture the same flavors as a Jamaican muck hole from a drum of dunder left outside in a Calgary winter. Ingredients are important too. If the local wildlife is unlikely to accidentally drown in your dunder pit, you might have to supplement from the butcher or your rat trap.

[firewater69]

I keep mine in a bucket with a lid and a dry airlock, keeps most bugs out and I definitely don't have to worry about critters. it's getting cold here now, so I'll be bringing my pit in the house. the wife don't mind as long as I don't ask her to look at it or smell it, she has before and it passed the smell test but she doesn't want anything to do with it until it's ready to drink.

[Johnnywhiskey]

I created a poll to keep track of live dunder practices:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 39&t=58882

Please Vote!

[BoomTown]

So this 'under' thing....several months back, to train ourselves on the expanding process challenges, we made about 200 gallons of mash, like at 15 gallons at a time...no kidding. We pumped it into a 300 gallon tank and let it set till we finally got clearance to start distilling.

We distilled the first cycles in a 100L SS pot with a 50L thumper. Again, to get an idea of what would happen when we went to scale.

The liquor we tucked away in a new 10 gallon Gibbs keg, back in Sept. So, I just did a little 'early' taste and look at it. It is after all, the last edition of my hobby liquor....

The taste surprised me, it has an 'earthy' shadow unlike anything I've ever made before. I'm wondering if, while we were collecting the 200 gallons of mash, it may have acquire some extra esters and congeners from wild yeasts ? The grain recipe never varied, the water though was new, from the wells on the property, but other than that, the process was the same, except in larger vessels.

Would we have inadvertently developed a 'under pit' in the 300 gallon tank ? It took 2 months to reach the 200 gallon mark.

BTW, the whiskey isn't bad, its doing quite well, just this surprise flavor popping out.

What say you oh wizards of the art?

[firewater69]

was there anything growing on it? no wizard here btw.

[MyUncleMo]

Hook rum Gen #2 used dunder from Gen #1.
It was kept in a Demijohn and developed a nice live skin over 75% of the top. I put the dunder in the ferment with no problems.
I did smell and taste it before committing it to the Batch, and it was sweet.
Now I have Gen#1 and Gen#2 dunder with a nice cap thew will eventually become Gen#3 Hook Rum.
Good luck

[moosemilk]

or use some tricks like a swab from a vagina

Snapper Rum?
Colossal chlamydia cordials?

TP, how did you miss this one?

(mm-picking up some slack...but not vd)