How does our product compare to store bought?

[Plaincrazy]

Not sure this is the best place for this but here goes.

I currently have one full year of distilling experience and have now tried my hand at whiskey, white and dark rum, neutrals and now gin. I have flavoured with raspberry and honey and experimented with a rhubarb brandy and a cherry vodka.
But here is my observation: Every chance I get, I will invite someone who I think has a good appreciation of fine spirits, be it whiskey, rum, gin, etc. and I share some of my product with them, have someone over for a drink if you will.
Not once has anyone said anything but "Damn , that's very good ". Now, my point is not to brag or anything because I firmly believe that anyone with a bit of skills, applied with some care and attention, and with the help of HD and its members can do this.

It must not be that hard to make good spirits it seems, not if poor little old me can make any of these spirits as good if not better than the popular producers, either that or the stuff on the shelf is of mediocre quality at best

[Monkeyman88]

You make cuts. Big distilleries don't.

[Plaincrazy]

You make cuts. Big distilleries don't.

Well if they do make cuts, I know where the heads go, ever smell a Lambs navy rum?

Add one more to my list, I just put together a Long Island Ice Tea mix, actually the main reason why I made gin.
In a one liter jar, juice of two limes, one part Hook's rum, one part Odin's easy gin, and one part chicken scratch all feints vodka. Holy crap, that is good! Wife said I could mix more of that, couple hundred gallons would do

[wtfdskin]

I have had friends say my rum is way smoother than store bought. I just cant seem to nail the flavors im after. Hopefully the double thumper build will help.
Dont mind drinking my mistakes though. Sooner or later I will hit on it.

[Bigbob]

You make cuts. Big distilleries don't.

BOOM there it is...I've have had the privilege to taste over 80 different spirits produced by 50 (or more) people on this forum. None have tasted like comercial.......all have been high quality spirits. There are very few comercial spirits that reach our high standards. At least in my opinion.

[corene1]

I have made some decent whiskies and in time I believe they will be exceptional, but that is the key word, Time, Nothing I have will compare to my 18 year old Macallan single malt Or a 18 year old Laphroaig . They are certainly better than the Jack Daniels and Jim Beams that are out there though.

[Bigbob]

None of the spirits I've drank where more than a year or so old. What would happen in 18 years could only be better. What I'm trying to say is follow the parameters set here in this forum, and do the proper cuts, and it can only be better!

[corene1]

None of the spirits I've drank where more than a year or so old. What would happen in 18 years could only be better. What I'm trying to say is follow the parameters set here in this forum, and do the proper cuts, and it can only be better!

Can't even imagine what they would taste like in 8 years. Exceptional is all I can come up with. I have a couple bottles of a bourbon I made when I first started . Back then I was hardly impressed by it but I saved some anyways. 3 years later It is really nice, smooth and flavorful.

[sungazer]

It is a hard one to say. Yes the product we make is way smother than the store bought. You never seem to get that rough face screwing moment or even that slightly Arhhhh after a swig. So that is really the question should you get a bit of a Kick when you have a drink straight up. Look at all the old westerns or other movies and there is that Arhhh moment is that something that should be in a good hard liqueur?

[Bigbob]

No of course not. You don't eat a prime rib with a grimace, you shouldn't drink spirits with one. That is a fantasy brought on by being 'manly'. You should only like what you like. When I serve someone something I made and he says there's no kick to it, I feel sorry.

[Yummyrum]

I actually really love commercial spirits . There is smell and flavour in it that I just can't seem to find in any of my Home made spirits .

I was convinced by members that its the heads , so I've experimented and added more and more ...but it isn't the heads .
Some have said the flavour is in the tails ...so I've added more and more tails ....but its just wrong and stinky and time doesn't seem to help it .

Some have said its the Oak ...I've tried quite a few and again nothing stands out and hints at being the thing I like about Commercial spirits .

So I am concluding that like Corene said , its Time ....and probably in a barrel and not swishing around in a glass jar with some oak sticks in it . In fact I think if we want to make Spirits that taste and smell like commercial stuff we may have to do what they do and do looser cuts and stick it in a barrel and let nature do its thing .

But I am greedy and can't wait so I do tight tasteless cuts and quickly age them and although they are smooth as attested by some Xmas drinkers , they lack the Balls I would prefer in my drink ...Oh well

[robpftas]

I actually really love commercial spirits . There is smell and flavour in it that I just can't seem to find in any of my Home made spirits .

I was convinced by members that its the heads , so I've experimented and added more and more ...but it isn't the heads .
Some have said the flavour is in the tails ...so I've added more and more tails ....but its just wrong and stinky and time doesn't seem to help it .

Some have said its the Oak ...I've tried quite a few and again nothing stands out and hints at being the thing I like about Commercial spirits .

So I am concluding that like Corene said , its Time ....and probably in a barrel and not swishing around in a glass jar with some oak sticks in it . In fact I think if we want to make Spirits that taste and smell like commercial stuff we may have to do what they do and do looser cuts and stick it in a barrel and let nature do its thing .

But I am greedy and can't wait so I do tight tasteless cuts and quickly age them and although they are smooth as attested by some Xmas drinkers , they lack the Balls I would prefer in my drink ...Oh well

I agree 100 percent. I age AG single malt on oak in glass while i collect enough for a 20l barrel. First barrel down now for 12 months and better result but while need a lot more time to gain the depth that you get with premium commercial product. I am concerned that i cant keep it long enough in a 20l barrel without over oaking. But don't want to wait years in a larger barrel like they do. Maybe we can get close but no cigar.

[MDH]

Depends. I'd say the older Scottish Whiskies are are less smooth than mine, but much more complex in flavor, and the only thing I am doing differently is making a stricter heart cut and aging for less time (But I am putting down Whisky to be aged for longer).

In terms of brandy, I live in Canada, where the great Iron Curtain of our government's Liquor Board prevents me from accessing some of the truly magnificent brandies from around the world, so my own spirits, distilled from marachel foch grapes or japanese beauty plums, remains the best I'm able to drink on a semi-regular basis.

[nerdybrewer]

I don't give much of my stuff away, you can never know what will happen with it after it's out of your control.
I do have one friend that I trust enough to give a small bottle to for Christmas, and he had the good sense to ask me what proof it is.
He said the stuff is so smooth he feels it's important to know what proof it is so nothing bad happens.
This rum as been in two different used whiskey barrels and has aged nicely.
My single malt scotch is in it's second barrel now and while you can certainly tell it's a peated scotch it's no where near smooth yet.
Maybe it will be getting there by next Christmas.
Using oak barrels and high quality ingredients certainly helps, but it's expensive. So I am hoping for spirits that are at least as good as what I can buy, but I am aware that the main ingredient is time (thanks Corene!)

[sungazer]

Depends. I'd say the older Scottish Whiskies are are less smooth than mine, but much more complex in flavor, and the only thing I am doing differently is making a stricter heart cut and aging for less time (But I am putting down Whisky to be aged for longer).

In terms of brandy, I live in Canada, where the great Iron Curtain of our government's Liquor Board prevents me from accessing some of the truly magnificent brandies from around the world, so my own spirits, distilled from marachel foch grapes or japanese beauty plums, remains the best I'm able to drink on a semi-regular basis.

Really could you explain about the embargo. I never knew there was anything like this.

[MDH]

I'll try without being too long winded and derailing the topic.

In most of the provinces in Canada, the purchasing, distribution and retail of liquor is only by a government-run monopoly which must send all of its profit to general revenue. They are notoriously wasteful and overly beaurocratic, and usually rely on poor or outdated policies regarding the taxation of spirits.

If a "private" store, for instance, wants to carry an obscure or niche product, they must still actually ask the government to buy it first, then they must buy it from the government after the government has applied flax tax rates of 150%+ to the product. Since neither the private store or the government can negotiate large volume prices from tiny and obscure producers, the result is that an Artisan Mezcal or English Hipster Gin for instance will be $70 in California, and close to $200 in Canada after the government applies its tax. Since outrageously priced Mezcal or Hipster Gin doesn't sell, nobody even bothers trying to carry it and the selection available suffers greatly.

[nerdybrewer]

Washington State (USA) used to be a state under government control of ever bottle sold.
Then they "Privatized".
We used to pay around 8.5% tax on every bottle sold.

Now we pay 20.5% tax plus a $2.83 per liter fee for every bottle sold.
Oh, they got to sell off the properties and get rid of employees and sell licenses to stores to provide the alcohol for sale.

The upside is that the price per bottle has gone way up and the selection has gone way down.
Thus interest in making your own has risen dramatically.

[BoomTown]

Well here goes. It's well known that i'm a bit of a purist. I make one recipe. yep. just one. I make it several ways. using the same grain bill, I distill, re-distill, age it on oak, blend it back between batches, some times I filter it, and what not. (curses here - for my own binefit, I've been known to 'flavor a barrel' using a port, a brandy, or even, heaven forbid, an apple chip or the shavings form the branch of a cherry tree, and of course I've tinkered with walnut woods.) I've even tried using french vanella beans.

What come about is, yes. I do make a beverage I prefer over most of the commercial bottles I've bought.

Now that said, I've also acquired a bar stocked with some elite brands of bourbon, the makers of which have done themselves proud, and I'm inclined to offer that booze to guests before I offer what I consider to be the best of Uncle Lums. Though, only because I can get more of that, and my ULW's pre-license is a diminshing resource. But of course, now I'm expected/required to bring out ULW at home social functions.

Granted, I am an arrogant S.O.B., but I'm also not playing games with this stuff. I want to make the best, I plan to make the best, and at the moment, I'm believe I'm getting closer every day. Can't wait to see how what we did in '14 turns out this March, Just wish I'd made it within the law - but no regrets...I'm the only one that knows where it is, and can drink it.

Happy New Year all.

Boom

[MDH]

Now we pay 20.5% tax plus a $2.83 per liter fee for every bottle sold.

I'd still say that is heads and shoulders above what is going on in British Columbia. People drive to Washington because British Columbians consider Washington's liquor "cheap".

[raketemensch]

Well, the youngest JD you've ever tasted was at least 4 years old. That's a lot of lead time on my 5-month history.

In 4 years I'll probably discover that I needed more heads/tails.

[nerdybrewer]

Well, the youngest JD you've ever tasted was at least 4 years old. That's a lot of lead time on my 5-month history.

In 4 years I'll probably discover that I needed more heads/tails.

Did nobody else watch those Youtube vids of the Scottish master distillers?
Of course they discard forshots but then they put it all in the barrels and let time and oak sort it out.

Now my personal experience shows that aging in smaller barrels ( 5 to 8 gallon) means less actual time per gallon of spirit equals longer time for the big guys in their larger barrels.
However you still need time, you can't avoid or cheat time, but you can use math to your advantage.
Like as in: 5 gallon barrel for 1 year = 55 gallon barrel for 11 years
(or whatever...)

[MDH]

I happen to know one of those Scottish master distillers, and he managed quite a number of distilleries in both Islay and Speyside. He told me the heart cut is always around 40-60% of what is collected on the spirit run. That's wide indeed, but they don't completely omit a head cut.

[googe]

the best part is, we don't have to please the masses, just our own tastes.

[sungazer]

IMHO I don't think it is age. I would have thought that the guys using pot stills may have had a closer to the commercial product as more forshot type product comes over and more flavor from the ferment wash. However they are probably trying to make the best product they can and are discarding a lot more of the fore shots than the commercial guys. So I think it is more of the for shots that makes the difference.

Having said that I know that there is also a lot of commercial product made that is made using fractioning stills the product watered down and then a flavor and colour added. I would like to go into a big warehouse shop that we have here and look at all the bottles as they do say how it was made. Especially if it was a ethanol then flavored and coloured. I think many would be surprised how many commercial spirits are made this way. For one I had a bottle of Chivas Regal 12 years old that was labeled this way. I don't know what the labeling laws are in other countries but they are pretty strict here in Australia and getting stricter all the time.

[Yummyrum]

IMHO I don't think it is age. I would have thought that the guys using pot stills may have had a closer to the commercial product as more forshot type product comes over and more flavor from the ferment wash. However they are probably trying to make the best product they can and are discarding a lot more of the fore shots than the commercial guys. So I think it is more of the for shots that makes the difference.
.

Well that's the sort of thing all the Bundy bashers have repeated to me . I can tell you that there is nothing in any of the jars that come off my pot still that resemble Bundy.....even in my wildest imagination ....and I sampled a lot of jars of heads and even some fores .....(yes I know fores are bad but had to see for myself ...one can only comment if one has tried it ).

Believe me I have had tried........everything except use a continuous striping column prior to Pot stilling spirit Run and Aging in a humongous oak cask for 2 years or more .

However , the only spirits I have tasted that come close to Commercial spirits ( not talking Bundy here ) were those that aged in Oak barrels for a long period . Salt bush Bills is one of these

[sungazer]

My reason for saying that its not the aging is mostly not due to the taste factor as I do believe a lot of this does come from the barrel for certain spirits. But again more due to the roughness of the commercial spirits. Again I am speaking more from a point of view of having made very high ABV spirits watered these down and in the early days carbon washed the heck out of them in the belief pure was better. I don't think aging is going to add this kick if anything it should mellow it.

My more recent batch I have only taken off the very first fore shots. Then made a cut at a very high ABV but close to the turning point and kept all this. I will water it down add the flavor and age it in glass 25L with a good qty of well charred oak. For as long as I can.

I am aiming at getting a good 5-10 years supply made so that I can just replace one years supply at a time on an ongoing basis.

[engunear]

I like my older whiskeys (18 mo only) more than the low-end single malts. My oldest is about 2 yrs, but the early ones don't get tasted very often, which is why I still have them. My new whiskeys are a bit rough and ready. Mine don't taste like anything you can buy, but nor does american whiskey taste like scotch.

I puzzle at this cuts question, but think wider cuts plus more oak plus more time = better. You need the wide range of alcohols to get a wide range of esters, but it takes more time and more sweetness from the wood to bring it into balance. Sherry helps, and as fortified wine is present in many scotches (from the barrels), I don't think its cheating.

The 12yo scotches and mid range bourbons (e.g. Lagavulin, Elijah Craig, Woodford) are better than mine by a yard, which is expected as they have had more time to age.

I recently tasted an 18 yo Macallan and an 18 yo Lagavulin and they were a revelation, complex and amazingly silky. And if you ever feel like affording a $250 single barrel scotch from the Whiskey Tasters Society, they will pin your ears back. They do tastings of about 6 whiskeys for about $60 which are pretty amazing if you don't have money to burn quite that quick. Will we ever get there? Hard to tell, but I'd like to think so.

I'm gonna be an old fart when I'm drinking 12yo of my own, but thats the plan, then we can have this conversation again.

[sungazer]

I puzzle at this cuts question, but think wider cuts plus more oak plus more time = better. You need the wide range of alcohols to get a wide range of esters, but it takes more time and more sweetness from the wood to bring it into balance. Sherry helps, and as fortified wine is present in many scotches (from the barrels), I don't think its cheating.

Me too and I am starting a batch or two that have a lot more tails in them (using a fractioning still and stopping at about 80 degrees C) This meas that there is still about 100-200 ml of ex tractable ethanol in the wash) I have tasted this last 200ml straight watered down on day one from the still no airing out (not that I have ever done this something to research) not filtered through activated carbon like I did once up on a time. It did have a tingle to the lips feel about it still smooth and not the same as commercial. So this time I am watering down a batch adding the flavor adding about two hadfulls of charred oak chips and will let it sit a while. This is a 25L batch. Some of chips will be charred pretty well this way they act like a bit of carbon (probably give you cancer ) the others just enough to be caramelized.

[RNaka]

I like my older whiskeys (18 mo only) more than the low-end single malts. My oldest is about 2 yrs, but the early ones don't get tasted very often, which is why I still have them. My new whiskeys are a bit rough and ready. Mine don't taste like anything you can buy, but nor does american whiskey taste like scotch.

I puzzle at this cuts question, but think wider cuts plus more oak plus more time = better. You need the wide range of alcohols to get a wide range of esters, but it takes more time and more sweetness from the wood to bring it into balance. Sherry helps, and as fortified wine is present in many scotches (from the barrels), I don't think its cheating.

The 12yo scotches and mid range bourbons (e.g. Lagavulin, Elijah Craig, Woodford) are better than mine by a yard, which is expected as they have had more time to age.

I recently tasted an 18 yo Macallan and an 18 yo Lagavulin and they were a revelation, complex and amazingly silky. And if you ever feel like affording a $250 single barrel scotch from the Whiskey Tasters Society, they will pin your ears back. They do tastings of about 6 whiskeys for about $60 which are pretty amazing if you don't have money to burn quite that quick. Will we ever get there? Hard to tell, but I'd like to think so.

I'm gonna be an old fart when I'm drinking 12yo of my own, but thats the plan, then we can have this conversation again.

Your assessment is exactly how I would describe my experience to date!

When I read others disparaging commercial products I'm left to wonder what commercial products they're drinking.

Cheers

Reed

[engunear]

Probably the standard bottom shelf spirits: Jack Daniels, Johnny Walker Red, Bundy rum all that stuff, which I only drink when I can't avoid. However, Wild Turkey which is bottom shelf as well where I live is quite decent