Rye & Barley batch

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Going to write out my process. I go against the grain on a few things, so take it easy on me.

I attempted to make a 100% Rye batch with milled malted rye. I didn't get much rye flavor. Two reasons, I only used ~ 8 lbs of Rye in a 13 gallon batch & second, I don't believe the Rye was broken up enough.
So, batch 2 with Rye I've increased the Rye & added Barley. I've also used a kitchen blender to grind the rye & barley finer.

Grain bill is 21 lbs malted rye & 7 lbs malted 6 row barley. Both ground, not to a fine powder, but more than just cracked. I added this to 8 gallon of water in a 15 gallon SS pot. Cooking on a gas burner.

I was attempting to do a multi stage hold at 130F, 140F & 154F for 30 min each, but it didn't quite go that way. I started by heating the water to 155 & adding all the grain. It dropped to 140ish. I left it on low heat for about 10 minutes while I stirred then turning off the heat & letting it cool to 130 which took about 45 min. Then heated to 154F & let it cool to 140F over 30 min & heated again 154F & set it off the burner for ~ 3 hours letting it cool on it's own. After 3 hours, I added 6 gallon of cool water. Totaling 14 gallon.

The consistency after cooking (before adding water) a while was like my morning oatmeal. Very thick!

After adding water & mixing my SG was 1.056 which I was very happy with.

Here's the part someone is going to start giving me a hard time. I added around 15 lbs of sugar to increase my starting SG to 1.104. I have made many corn batches adding sugar & maximizing the alcohol content of my wash. I do not believe this causes any flavor issue & I get a lot more alcohol out of a run. I would love to hear why so many are against this, because I've found no reason not to do it.

I added 2 packets of Lavlin EC-1118 which will can reach 16-18% Abv before dying out. Checked on it this morning & I've got a nice foam head starting. I mixed it well & checked SG again at 1.104.

This stuff tasted amazing. The guy that was with me said he'd like to have some to put over his pancakes in the morning.

Once I post this, I'll log back in from my phone & post some pictures.

Thanks for any input.

R.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

https://vimeo.com/156082487

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Just remembered. I added 2 tbs of alpha amalayse at the start of the cook. First time I've tried to use this. Just saw it at the brew store & thought I'd give it a try.

[MitchyBourbon]

After 3 hours, I added 6 gallon of cool water. Totaling 14 gallon.

The consistency after cooking (before adding water) a while was like my morning oatmeal. Very thick!

@ Ryewhiskey1995

28 lbs of grain in 8 gallons is 3.5 lbs of grain per gallon of water. That will definitely make for a very thick mash. A thick mash is difficult to convert. Enzymes are not motile, so if your mash isn't thin enough for them to drift around and bump into starches it will be more difficult to get a good conversion. You may find it to be less work if you start off with a little more water.

As for adding sugar... Most of us know that all grain requires a fair amount of work. Most of us also believe we can taste the difference between alcohol from sugar as opposed to alcohol from grain. It's not that one is good and the other is bad. It's kinda like buying a classic Ford Mustang and replacing the original engine with one from a Chevy Vega. It will look cool and it will get you there, but deep down you know it just ain't the same.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

I thought about adding more water , but it wasn't hard to stir. The thickness didn't affect the conversion too much with a final sg of 1.056. Next time I will use more tho.
As for the sugar add, maybe one day I'll run two batches side by side one adding the extra sugar, one without.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Bubbling away. Looks & smells good!

[MichiganCornhusker]

If you are a real explorer, I suggest 3 more batches.

First brew up the exact same recipe, but add enough water to bring the OG down to around 1.065. This may give your yeast a happier playground.

Second do the exact same recipe, except delete the sugar, starting around OG 1.065 with just grains. This will give you a true all grain whiskey.

And then as a third experiment, piggyback a sugar head on the spent fermented grains of the AG batch.

Then you would have four similar spirits, made under substantially different conditions, that you could taste side by side and see which you like best.
Keep them as test bottles, and see if your tastes drift one way or another over time.

And then keep us all posted with your results! Good luck.

[rager]

your conversion wasnt great but not terible. you had less then 70% conversion. most aim for 75% or better. ive hit over 85 % with enzymes in conjuction with malts.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

so i would work on the mashing aspect so you dont need to add white sugar to the recipe.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Wouldn't your percentages be based on how much water I added? Let's say I diluted with 2 gallons of water instead of 6. The hydrometer would have read much higher. If I'd have added 10 gallons, it would be lower.
How would I test the actual conversion? Iodine? This is new to me, ive always added sugar & not worried about it. Thanks.

[BayouShine]

Wouldn't your percentages be based on how much water I added? Let's say I diluted with 2 gallons of water instead of 6. The hydrometer would have read much higher. If I'd have added 10 gallons, it would be lower.
How would I test the actual conversion? Iodine? This is new to me, ive always added sugar & not worried about it. Thanks.

Your mash efficiency has nothing to do with the amount of water you add. It's a ratio of the amount of starch available in the grain to the amount of sugar converted, using Points per Pound per Gallon or PPG. Even if you had put less water, the PPG would have changed accordingly giving you the same efficiency.

Iodine would be your best bet to check for complete conversion. Make sure the sample is free and clear of any solids as they will give you a false reading.

[rager]

Wouldn't your percentages be based on how much water I added? Let's say I diluted with 2 gallons of water instead of 6. The hydrometer would have read much higher. If I'd have added 10 gallons, it would be lower.
How would I test the actual conversion? Iodine? This is new to me, ive always added sugar & not worried about it. Thanks.

type in different amounts of grains, and water and watch how the ppg change and effeciency changes


http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

possible one of the best reads i have come across, read this until your eyes bleen

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Raged,

Thanks! That calculator is very helpful & makes perfect sense. Just like I assumed it would work out for the concentrations of grains to water. Sometimes what someone thinks / posts & it's interpretation by another are different on these forums, but it's hard not to get frustrated when you can't get your point across.

I appreciate the link.

R.

[biggybigz]

I believe that they higher your sugar content, the less flavor will carry over. The higher the sugar content, the more heads you will have. I have experimented both ways and the mouth feel and flavor is better when I use less sugar.

[Max_Vino]

If I am following all this correctly, I see your "fermenting on the grain”. Do you plan to distill on the grain also ? If not, how do you plan to separate the grain from the wash ?
Do any of you have a preference for fermenting "on grain" vs "off grain" ?

Cheers,
Max

[der wo]

Ryewhiskey1995,
21lbs malted rye, 7lbs 6-row, total 14gal. I calculate from that OG 1.062. So your 1.056 (before adding the sugar) is not so bad.
The best way to test the conversion are hydrometer readings. If your FG is 1.000 or below, your mashing was perfect.

[TurtleLA]

IMO if you are going to add sugar to an AG bill, you might as well just do a sugar wash. The flavors are much different between the two.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Turtle LA
I've tried batches where I cook the corn for 90 min @ 150 & still add sugar & then ran batches with the same amount of corn & not cooking it. It's not even close. No corn flavor comes thru in the no cook batch.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Max vino
Yes I ferment on the grain. I use a wine auto siphon with a sediment cap to get the liquid off of the lees / grain when it reaches 1.000 or under (depending on activity in the batch) . I'll give it a week or so in carboys & rack it again into the keg still pot.
I have fermented on grain & off grain by dumping it thru a hops bag from the cook pot into the fermenter. I didn't see much difference in taste. It's just easier for me to ferment on the grain. I even stir it daily. My thought there is more air in the batch will help with fermentation & stirring up the grains may help add more flavor.
Thanks
R.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Biggybigz, thanks for the input. I'll be trying a straight grain batch soon after hearing multiple people's opinion that matches yours.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Der wo

Thanks! I didn't think I was too bad off either.
We'll find out when it's over ice.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

It's setting in a cool basement now. Temperature there is 68-70f I'd say.
My SG just now was around 1.060 so it's moving along nicely.

R.

[BayouShine]

I even stir it daily. My thought there is more air in the batch will help with fermentation & stirring up the grains may help add more flavor.

This is actually opposite of what you should be doing. Yeasts do need oxygen early on in the budding process, but once that's over the production of alcohol is done under anaerobic conditions. All you're going to add by stirring is risk of infecting your ferment. Just leave the yeasts to do their jobs.

[Ryewhiskey1995]

Interesting.
I've been "punching down" grapes in wine for many years. As is recommended by all wine makers. Stirring through much of the fermentation.
Do you have any references that I could read on the topic? It's not that I'm disagreeing, I'd just like to study that idea a little more. Thanks.

[BayouShine]

Interesting.
I've been "punching down" grapes in wine for many years. As is recommended by all wine makers. Stirring through much of the fermentation.
Do you have any references that I could read on the topic? It's not that I'm disagreeing, I'd just like to study that idea a little more. Thanks.

We ain't making wine. Stirring the cap down and stirring the whole fermenter to aerate the mash are 2 different things. Oats and bananas come to mind. They make a big spongy cap that needs to be broken up to prevent molding.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... &sk=t&sd=a

[der wo]

Der wo

Thanks! I didn't think I was too bad off either.
We'll find out when it's over ice.

Oh, probably the subtext was too hidden... I fear, you will not get a low FG. Multi step mashings like for beer brewing always let a portion of the sugars being unfermentable.
But prove me wrong...

[Boda Getta]

I did a 100% malted rye AG last summer that is developing into a very nice drop. 1 went with 2# malt/gal water. Heated the water to around 153F strike temp and poured over the grain in my Big Brut with a hot water heater insulated sheet wrapped around it, and held it about 2 hours at 148ish F. Cooled it down with a wort cooler, then added yeast and fermented on the grain. Fermented down to 1.000 in about 10 days, I did a fast and hot strip run, then a low and slow spirit run, after cuts I end up at 125 proof and into a new Gibbs Bros #3 char keg for around 3 weeks, then into a well used charred keg for a couple of months and it's aging in glass now and doing well. I didn't end up with the usual spice back end end you find with most non malted rye whiskey, it is much more subtle, has some rye favor but closer to a malted barley whiskey. I also did a malted barley run at the same time using the exact method. I also did a sugar head from both runs using all the spend grain, both of them turned out well also.

BG