Three Grain Sour Mash

[pope]

I'm starting a new cycle on a new recipe after a long time away, and I just did my first mash last night so I thought I'd put it on here and post a few updates as things progress. Maybe even post a few pictures if I remember to take them.

The recipe:

22.5# cracked feed corn
4.5# 2-row barley malt
3# rye malt
15 gal H20 (33% backset on successive batches)
Wyeast Bourbon Yeast (WLP070) starter (successive batches pitched onto active grain)

The method:

Bring water to boil, add corn and stir in, then rest until cooled to 152F. Stir in malts for conversion, let rest until below 80F, then dump into fermentor. Punch down grain cap for primary fermentation, strain liquid to carboy for secondary to let fine solids settle (I use a brew pump and a colander to get it into the carboy). Strip and recycle hot backset into next batch.

The yield:

At 85% efficiency, it would be a 6.5% beer.

I figured this would be simple enough that I'd actually do it. The first batch was a half batch to get the yeast going and my yield was horrible (8 brix/1.031 sg/40% efficiency), I'm assuming mostly because I started with 1/3 of the water because I can't read my own directions (and it was early). If anyone feels like chiming in, I'm curious to know your thoughts on whether or not I'll see additional conversion during fermentation. I'm expecting the acidity of the backset to help future cycles, and I may boil the corn for up to 30 minutes to aid in gelatinization, but I've done that before and constant stirring of porridge-thick corn is a very steamy workout with a high chance of burning if you miss a spot even briefly.

Aging is kind of off-topic for this forum but I have an 8-gal #3 char barrel from black swan which I'll be filling at about 62% abv.

Anyway there you go. If anything seems good/bad about the recipe and my assumptions, I'm all ears. Next update on total distillate yield from the first iteration plus brix and estimated efficiency on the second mash.

Final question - does anyone ever weigh their distillate? It seems to me this would be a more accurate method since the approximation of a gallon in a nearly full glass jug isn't exactly 128 oz.

[der wo]

This grain bill should give you around 16-17gal mash with a SG of around 1.060 with a perfect mashing. After fermentation almost 8%.

I see the problems here:
-cracked corn instead of fine milled corn
-no gelatinization
-low malt content
-155 F kills the beta-amylase within 20min.

Cracked corn needs a many hours long gelatinization. Over night would be best. Bring it to a boil while stirring and insulate it all around. Stir occasionally. Perhaps after a few hours boil and stir again.

Read in NCHoochs Carolina Bourbon -thread the chapter premashing. It helps a lot.

I recommend 135 F for the malt.

[Shiny Coke]

135F seems low Der Wo. Is this the temp you work with?
I've been doing mine around 152F and it drops to the magic 149F after I add my malt without issue. That said I also add a teaspoon of "Amylase" from my brew shop with the malt. Not sure if it is Alpha or Beta Amylase. I may be doing it wrong though as I've been using bakers yeast cake and having trouble getting below 1.020.

@ eworthin - I'd aim for a grain:malt ratio of at least 60:40 and if you want to get away from the dreaded cooking method of the corn for gelatanization (if thats a word ) try flaked maize. Flaked maize (corn) has already been through the gelatanization (geez, I like that word, don't care its not a word) process so doesn't require cooking.

[der wo]

Yes I work with 135 F. And I don't have troubles getting to 1.000. Even with a similar grain-malt-ratio like ewortin.
The powder is alpha-amylase normally.
BTW: gelatinization

[pope]

As far as malt:adjunct ratios, I know more malt is better, but I believe there should be enough enzymatic activity from 15% 6-row to convert 85% unmalted adjunct. In a perfect world. Granted this recipe is 2-row and rye malt which have less potential for conversion (I forget the word for it).

For round two I will: 1) try the boil and re-boil suggestion for the corn. I did a 4-grain recipe years ago but started the corn around 150 and used some amylase to loosen it up before I heated to a boil, but this time around I'm trying to be a purist about it (albeit an as-lazy-as-possible purist who's trying to avoid arduous cooking). 2) I'll re-mill the cracked corn once or twice and see if I can't get it finer.

As far as flaked maize, I'd love to but cracked corn is $16/50# at the local feed, flaked maize is $100/50# from an online brew shop. I'm sure it could be found for less but it's still many times more expensive.

Thanks for the tips so far!

[Shiny Coke]

BTW: gelatinization

[Shiny Coke]

Yes I work with 135 F. And I don't have troubles getting to 1.000.

Just wondering what your mash time is at that temp? Still 1 hr or does it require a bit longer? I may be mashing on the weekend and will try the lower temp for mash in. - cheers

[shadylane]

For round two I will: 1) try the boil and re-boil suggestion for the corn. I did a 4-grain recipe years ago but started the corn around 150 and used some amylase to loosen it up before I heated to a boil, but this time around I'm trying to be a purist about it (albeit an as-lazy-as-possible purist who's trying to avoid arduous cooking). 2) I'll re-mill the cracked corn once or twice and see if I can't get it finer.
Thanks for the tips so far!

Just a thought
I noticed the word "lazy" and that you were going to grind cracked corn finer
Time to think about how your going to "strain liquid to carboy"
A finer grind and longer cooking gives you higher mash efficiency.
But, makes separating the liquids from the solids more difficult.

[der wo]

Yes I work with 135 F. And I don't have troubles getting to 1.000.

Just wondering what your mash time is at that temp? Still 1 hr or does it require a bit longer? I may be mashing on the weekend and will try the lower temp for mash in. - cheers

You don't have to hold specific durations for mashing whisky. Detailed recipes like 1h rest at this temp and 1h15min at that temp is for beer brewing. When you change the duration of the restes of your beer mash, you change the taste profile of the resulting beer. When you rest longer than needed for your whisky mash, nothing changes. So I don't mess with wort chillers, I simply wait until the temp drops to the right temp. But I do small batches, so without insulation the temp drops relatively fast.

For example:
After breakfast I heat water to mash in temp. Then I add the corn slowly. When it becomes too thick I add a bit malt, wait a bit and then add the rest of the corn. Now I have time to do something different. It's absolutely no matter if I wait 1h or 2h. Of course sometimes stirring is a good idea (but since a few months I have an agitator). Then I heat up for gelatinization. After that I remove the insulation, add the rye (I am talking about a normal Bourbon recipe with mainly corn and rye and malted barley) and let it cool down. Normally here is lunch. At around 165F I add a small portion of the malt and insulate everything again. Sometimes here is lunch. Then I wait until 135 F and add the main and last portion of the malt. Normally early evening. Next morning it is cooled down to yeast pitching temp.
Yes, my mashing needs a whole day. But it's not like working the whole time, it's because I take longer breaks.

[Shiny Coke]

Thanks for that great explanation of your mash day Der Wo; it paints a nice picture of your process. I use an insulated cooler to mash in as I've so far been using solely flaked corn which doesn't need the cooking for gelatinization. I find after 45 mins to an hour after the malt is added, the conversion is complete and presumed at 135F it would take longer to fully convert.
I want to try Shineon's method of adding boiling water to cracked corn and insulating the vessel and think my cooler mash tun will hold the heat for too long. Going to try it in the fermenting container and insulating with a sleeping bag for a few hours to allow the gelatinization to occur and hoping it will drop temp fairly easily after I remove the bag. Was planning on cooling it with the immersion chiller as I've always been afraid of infection by leaving it warm for too long. I'm now considering your method of pitching the yeast next morning after it cool down on its own.
Alas, I fear I've hijacked this thread and took it off in another direction. My apologies eworthin, please keep us in the loop on how your efforts above turn out!

[der wo]

There are different opinions here, if flaked corn is fully gelatinizied. It's treated with steam or hot water, but only very short to make it pressable. Is this equal to a longer full boil? Or equal to the pressure cooker method of the pros?

I find after 45 mins to an hour after the malt is added, the conversion is complete and presumed at 135F it would take longer to fully convert.

How do you know? An iodine test? An iodine test tells you only little about the fermentability. The fermentability can only judged after fermentation unfortunately. If your gravity ends at 1.000 or lower, forget everything I said. If not, think about it.

[masonsjax]

135 is too low for a single infusion mash. der wo is doing a three stage step mash, adding new malt (read: enzymes) at each stage. This a smart and efficient way to get thorough conversion, but yeah it takes some time.

[der wo]

135 is too low for a single infusion mash. der wo is doing a three stage step mash, adding new malt (read: enzymes) at each stage. This a smart and efficient way to get thorough conversion, but yeah it takes some time.

You are right. But "step mash" is a term used by brewers for a very different method. So I wouldn't use this term here too.

[masonsjax]

Why wouldn't you call it that? That's exactly the process you're using. Beer brewers do it for the impact it has on body and flavor, but it has the exact same effect: breaking down more protiens, starches, and complex sugars. Distillers and brewers are more similar than not. Most of the processes are interchangeable, although the details may vary, embracing the techniques can improve our skills.

[OldBrew75]

135F seems low Der Wo. Is this the temp you work with?
I've been doing mine around 152F and it drops to the magic 149F after I add my malt without issue. That said I also add a teaspoon of "Amylase" from my brew shop with the malt. Not sure if it is Alpha or Beta Amylase. I may be doing it wrong though as I've been using bakers yeast cake and having trouble getting below 1.020.

@ eworthin - I'd aim for a grain:malt ratio of at least 60:40 and if you want to get away from the dreaded cooking method of the corn for gelatanization (if thats a word ) try flaked maize. Flaked maize (corn) has already been through the gelatanization (geez, I like that word, don't care its not a word) process so doesn't require cooking.

I thought 135F seemed low to, had to check back but low and behold Beta Amylase works down to 131F

The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153°F. This is a compromise between the two temperatures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 154-162°F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best between 131-150°F. ~ How to Brew - John Palmer

[der wo]

The amylases work too at room temp. Or how do you think converts the seedling the starches while growing? I usually do after the mashing a 7 days rest at room temp. The most members name this rest "fermentation". The low temp is less a problem than the low pH probably during the 7 days.
Information for brewers about mashing temps and durations is not valid for distillers, because they don't have to make all the starch fermentable. 153 F produces a beer with residual sugars/dextrines. A beer without them would not taste well.
All amylase work faster in a hotter environment. An "optimal temp" depends always on how long the enzyme shall work/live.

[pope]

Love all the information coming in here.

I did do a second mash this weekend, it was abbreviated because I had to leave the house before noon, but I figured it was an opportunity to compare a few tweaks and see where it got me. The changes were: mashing with 5 of the 7.5 gallons (I spaced on my measurements and did 2.5 gal last time and the corn could have soaked more than that up), plus I did remill the cracked corn - it crushed it down to about 1/2 to 1/3 the kernel size.

I was able to add the 11.25# corn to boiling water and bring it back to a boil over about 15 minutes. Covered with a blanket and let it rest. Due to aforementioned time constraints, at 90 min. I crashed the temp down to 122F with the remaining 2.5 gal. as ice water, then mashed in with my malts (2.25# barley malt, 1.5# rye malt) and brought the temp gradually up to 149F over about 15 minutes. This I left until the next morning. Checked in at 13 brix, which is about 66% efficiency. Not great but much better than the first batch. I'll have a better idea of real efficiency when I measure the abv and volume of distillate from the stripping runs.

For following batches I would prefer to use all 7.5 gallons of water and bring the corn back to a boil at the 90 minute mark, then let it rest until it comes down to 150F naturally, then bring up the temp a bit from wherever the room temp grain drops it (probably only a few degrees). From everything you've collectively suggested, I don't think I'll need to add heat again at that point since I'll be covering and leaving it overnight to cool to fermentation temperature. Anyway that's the idea for mash #3, plus by the time I do a third mash, I'll be using 2.5 gal backset + 5 gal h20, so I'm hoping the pH of the mash will improve with the use of backset.

Finally, for my 'lazy' approach and getting the liquid off the grain, I'll be using a brew pump in a colander. When the fermentor gets low, I'll use a nylon mesh paint bag to wring residual beer from half the grains. Probably a little too much work to be considered 'lazy' but I don't have a ratchet press (yet).

[Jimbo]

Yes I work with 135 F. And I don't have troubles getting to 1.000. Even with a similar grain-malt-ratio like ewortin.
The powder is alpha-amylase normally.
BTW: gelatinization

Mash temp and getting to 1.000 FG are unrelated. Mash temp and SG are related, how much starch did you convert to sugar. At 135F you are below the happy zone for beta amylase and mashing at less than 50%. See chart below. Youll have much better results starting in the mid 140's and finishing at 60-90 min at 140. As you can see its still outside alpha activity range, but in 90 percentile for beta.

Also, he is putting boiling water on the corn and letting it sit until it hits 152. That is definitely gelatinizing the corn. Its the no cook method many of us use.

[der wo]

Mash temp and FG is related. Ask the brewers, the higher the temps, the sweeter the beer at the end.

My amylases are happy at 135, working slow and steady. At least at the end the conversion is complete (high SG abd FG under 1.000) even with a low malt content. I tried higher temps a few times before and failed.

High temps are good for solving and gelatinizing the starch. Not for enzymes. They work faster but die faster.

About this graph:
What use has the alpha-amylase for the plant, if it doesn't work under 60°C?
What is the use of alpha-amylase in our body? I can digest starch. So my alpha-amylase is working at 37°C.
This is the reason, that I don't trust the graph. The curves are much too narrow. I often thought about this graph but I did not find an answer.

But back on topic: What do you think was the reason for the low SG (1.031) of eworthins mash?

[Jimbo]

Mash temp and FG is related. Ask the brewers, the higher the temps, the sweeter the beer at the end.

Yes of course. Hasty typing on my part. I meant in the context of mashing in beta optimal range of 145 ish. Mashing at 155 will of course produce unfermentables for a sweeter beer and higher FG.

It looks like eworthins initial problem on batch 1 and 1.031 was the low water usage? He said he used 1/3 the water. Which means his corn soak must have been far below 185 range when the full recipe water is initially used on the corn cook step.

[der wo]

It looks like eworthins initial problem on batch 1 and 1.031 was the low water usage? He said he used 1/3 the water. Which means his corn soak must have been far below 185 range when the full recipe water is initially used on the corn cook step.

That's right. I forgot this detail in the meantime. But probably he added the water when he realized the mistake? When did he realize it and what temp had the water he added later?

[der wo]

This graph is from John Palmer, the famous brewer.
Here he writes:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how ... ng-defined" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
"Note: The above numbers were averaged from several sources and should be interpreted as typical optimum activity ranges. The enzymes will be active outside the indicated ranges but will be destroyed as the temperature increases above each range."

And where he got this graphs? I only find general "amylase"-graphs online, not malted grain amylase, more human body or amylase produced by fungi, not specific "grain-alpha-amylase".

"Several sources" are perhaps brewers and "typical optimum" perhaps meaned for beer brewing?

[Jimbo]

Its a pretty exacting graph if from anecdotal heresay. It drops from 100% effective to 5% effective in 15 degrees only. And it does specify beta amylase and alpha amylase specifically. My guess its from some poor sap student toiling laboriously in the university lab on a masters thesis when he could have been out chasing tail and partying it up like a proper college student....

[der wo]

If I was this student, I would draw something impressive looking within an hour and arrive to the party just right...

[skow69]

by the time I do a third mash, I'll be using 2.5 gal backset + 5 gal h20, so I'm hoping the pH of the mash will improve with the use of backset.

33% backset is pretty sour mash. I would check the pH to make sure you don't go too low.

John Palmer wrote:
"for best results, the mash pH should be 5.1 to 5.5 when measured at mash temperature, and 
5.4 to 5.8 when measured at room temperature."
                                        How to Brew, p.158

[Jimbo]

Agree with Skow on that. Too much backset is inviting trouble. Also, remember this is mash pH, not water for mash pH. Your mash pH is dependent on too many variables to list, buffering properties in the water, grain bill etc. Just need to fix one up on your water, then measure it. From then on youll have a baseline for your recipes

[Shiny Coke]

I'm always amazed at the wealth of knowledge here, tons of great info guys! I do an iodine test but now understand from Der Wo that as I'm mashing a bit higher (from my brewing background) I'm not fully converting the fermentables which is why I'm having difficulty getting lower than 1.02 - 1.015. Thought it was a yeast issue but there you have it.
Der Wo - If you do your final mash in (presuming the tun is still insulated from before) at 135, the temp should drop with your malt addition. Have you ever checked temp after the malt is added since it looks like 131 is the bottom of the scale for it to work?
Or am I maybe missing your point of the amylase will still work at the lower end of the scale as it works for nature. (and your digestive system )

[der wo]

Yes, it's still insulated.
No, I never measured after the last portion of malt. I guess it's not below 130, but of course drops slowly.
This low temp with this two premashings has worked many times for me, so either the alpha-amylase works at 130F and lower too (so the graph is wrong) or the beta-amylase converts everything alone (never heard about this idea). My grain bill contains 20% 2-row normally. Recently I used 30% malted rye.

eworthin,
I also think, that 33% backset is too much without pH-correction.
Here you can read about pH-risers:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=59291" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[masonsjax]

Higher temps denature the enzymes, lower (to a point) just slows the activity. There are also lots of other things going on in a mash other than the work of alpha and beta amylase as well. This article and chart give a nice brief overview of some of the other chemical changes that are taking place via various enzymes:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/ ... -the-mash/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

By resting at various temps and adding more malt at each step, you're optimizing for all of the above and getting a thorough breakdown of everything that can be converted.

[der wo]

Here...
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... of_Mashing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
..we have fermentability numbers from single rest brewed beers:

167F: 54% of the sugars are fermentable
160F: 76.8%
149F: 86.5%
140F: 87.5%
"The rests were held until conversion was complete." Whatever this means. A negative iodine test? Or no higher result after an hour rest more?

We have at a temperature where the alpha amylase does not work at all according to Palmers graph the highest fermentability (if both data are right...).