The art of making a Geist (Lemon and Orange)

[pyrate]

There is no need to fear blocking. You even do not need to grind or something like this. The alcohol vapor is a powerful solvent and enters a fruit very easily.

[der wo]

I want to add two new recipes:

Hazelnuts and peanuts.


I tried hazelnuts a few years ago. Mazerated and redistilled. It turned out very bad, probably because of the bitter skins of the nuts and perhaps because I scorched a few nuts while roasting them.
Now I tried again with skinned and already roasted nuts. I found vacuum sealed hazelnuts in a Turkish supermarket and also vacuum sealed peanuts (unsalted) online. It turned out better, but not really good, so the skins and the dark roasting were not the only mistakes. After a few failed runs I understood why and what helps.


There are two problems with nuts:

- Distilled nuts have ugly fatty moldy flavors (peanuts more than hazelnuts). You can remove them with a fores cut. But it is harder than with normal fores. Even with a very pure setting on a reflux still it needs much time and you loose much ethanol. But on the other hand there is absolute no tails cut (if the still and the neutral are clean). At least if you hold a high abv like 65%, you can squeeze the last drop ethanol out of the boiler and add it to the hearts.

- You have to mill the nuts to get all the flavor out. But you can not vapor infuse fine milled nuts without clogging the still. So a redistilled mazeration is the way to go. But fine milled nuts, ethanol and water boiling will foam like hell. My first try failed, because the tube to the needle valve of my LM were clogged with hazelnut puree! Between mash and stillhead were 1m SPP-packing, which didn't stop the foam! It was the worst run in my life. I used the same wattage I used successfully for single runs malt whisky before.
So I think single reflux runs are not preferable, because of the high wattage and the high reflux ratio, which is needed for seperating the fores. I recommend slow long stripping runs (long, because the good tastes are in the "tails") with the boiler only half filled and a spirit run with a very long fores cut and squeezing the mash out at the end.


In detail:

-Mix either 1kg skinned and slightly roasted hazelnuts or 1.25kg peanuts with 1l pure alcohol (diluted to 40-60%) and wait at least 24h. Then dilute it to around 15% abv (so you have 6.5-7l neutral, with the nuts 7.5-8l, so you need at least a 15l-boiler) and distill it slowly with a potstill down to total abv 35%.

-Do the spirit run with a reflux still. Send everything back a while, then slowly collect fores. When the ugly smell has disappeared (it was with hazelnuts much earlier than with peanuts. With peanuts perhaps you loose 20% of the alcohol, with hazelnuts perhaps less than 10%), open the valve (LM) or shut off the reflux condenser (CM), collect a few jars just for sure and then don't reflux until you have 90°C/65% at the top of column. Then start again refluxing, that the abv doesn't drop further. Just for sure collect a few jars "tails" when it slows down at the end. In my experience they are all usable and will improve the final spirit, if the packing is clean and the neutral too.

[Kareltje]

Thank you for sharing this experience!
I saw an episode of Moonshiners, were the two guys with the double still made some haselnut-shine for their party.

This seems to be a good year for beech, so I collected some. (Still trying to find a efficient way to peel them!!) But someone advised out of experience against it.
Your experiments give some direction.

Thinking about what you said about the long heads that are needed: I wonder if it would help to press the oil out first.
In that case one can split the effort of peeling and milling over both the oil and the pressed mass. And the pressed mass contains less oil and mostly protein.
I think I go try and find some walnutpressmass.

[der wo]

I don't know, if the oil, the proteins or something else is responsible for the needed fores cut.
Edit: BTW no fraction of the distillate, also fores and heads, were cloudy diluted to drinking strength. Cloudiness would mean oils probably.
There is much room for experiments.
I was lazy. Those are the products I used:

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Beech and walnuts sound great. Perhaps pumpkin seeds is a good idea too...

[still_stirrin]

Love this thread...subscribed.

I'm so intrigued by the possibilities here, so I'm going to join the fun. Unfortunately, I'll have to make some modifications to some of my equipment to start but I do currently have a small cache of clean neutral with which to make some geist.

During this discussion of maceration vs. vapor infusion, the question of "how to" hold the fruit in the vapor path and reflux to increase proof came to mind. Der wo, can you offer a suggestion here?

I plan to use a 16 qt stock pot boiler (currently built with a potstill head) to produce the geist. So, I'll have to build a reflux column with a reflux condenser and a product takeoff system. Again, der wo, can you offer a suggestion?

Thanks all with the discussions here. I must admit...as a traditional whiskey maker (and drinker), the geist "diversion" is something new to add to my spirit line-up. I am very much anxious to experiment with it.
ss

[der wo]

still_stirrin and me we had a few pms yesterday. And it looks we want this discussion to be in the forum.

For holding the fruit in the vapor path I use a vegetable steamer, three threaded rods and six wing nuts, everything stainless steel. Something like this:

I place it in the pot 1cm over liquid level.
To place the fruits in the column would be dangerous if it clogs. But anyway for the most recipes the volume of a column would not be enough to hold all the fruits.
Unfortunately I don't know, how to install such a thing in a KEG.

With some fruits, a low abv like 12% in the boiler gives a better result IMO. So it needs rectification to get a pure taste. Generally fruits like rectification IMO. So you need a column over the fruits. Or perhaps double runs would work too, I never tried.

Here my procedure with my LM still with 1m 2" SPP packing. Of course with other systems or other habits also other ways are possible. I think any good working method for a single run from low abv will work here too:

I reflux everything down a few seconds. Then I take a little sample to check, if a foreshot cut is needed (with fruits normally not). Then the abv is 95%, I open the needle valve (LM) and the abv drops fast. By tasting during the dropping of the abv I try to find out, what abv will be good for this fruit. Normally it is at around 70%/87-88°C. Here I try to hold the temp until the end. When the output slows down, I start to collect small jars, because with fruits there is normally always a point, where the taste gets worse. So the hearts will have around 75% because of the high abv at the beginning.
For the tasting I have always a glass water in the fridge. Cold, because when you dilute high proof spirits to drinking strength, it produces heat. And a warm spirit will not taste like normal temp spirit. I take a small smple either on a tablespoon or in a noising glass and mix it roughly with the cold water to drinking strength.

A Geist may not have the complexity like a brandy, but some fruits work extreme well. And you can choose, you can have tons of original fruit aroma or only a little, it depends on the amount of fruit and a bit on rectification too.

[still_stirrin]

Excellent description der wo. Thank you (Ich danke Ihnen).

I am sure you've inspired others to try the Geist now too. Certainly I am.

Prost!
ss

[NZChris]

Depending on the size and texture of the fruit, I chop it, or halve it, but never mash it.

So that I don't have to worry about if they should be in the boiler or the gin head, I put experimental botanicals in both.

Tasting the leftovers gives me a very good idea of how successful the extraction was. Nearly all of my leftovers are very much tasteless, regardless of how finely they were chopped or where they were in the still.

[der wo]

My leftovers normally still have aroma. I think it's because of the low abv in the boiler I normally use. It's a bit wasting, I get less aroma from the fruits, so I need more fruits. But when I compared it, the low abv version often tasted better. I only compared it with apples, sloes and green walnuts. The result is, that I now use for fruits a low abv and for spicy things a bit higher.

Because I know you normally use a potstill, do you use a higher abv to have a clean and strong result in a single run? Or do you make double runs? Or single runs from low abv to drinking strength? Mainly fruit or mainly spices?

[NZChris]

Mostly single runs with around 15-20% in the boiler. That said, I'm planning on making some navel orange essence today using 40% abv rum.

[still_stirrin]

Mostly single runs with around 15-20% in the boiler. That said, I'm planning on making some navel orange essence today using 40% abv rum.

Chris,

With a potstill and 40% neutral in the boiler, what do you get off still? 80-90 proof?

[still_stirrin]

How about when using 15-20% in the boiler?

[Odin]

On gin I learned 43% dissolves every note. If I'd translate that to Geist (not an expert by far though!), I'd go for higher maceration / redistillation ABV when peel/fruit is in the boiler. And if its in the vapor path (as I though all Geist were?), then I'd make sure gases are 43% plus.

Regards, Odin.

[NZChris]

Mostly single runs with around 15-20% in the boiler. That said, I'm planning on making some navel orange essence today using 40% abv rum.

Chris,

With a potstill and 40% neutral in the boiler, what do you get off still? 80-90 proof?

You would usually have to scrape the burnt crap off your pot if you tried to get to 80 proof from an 80 proof charge.

[Odin]

Mostly single runs with around 15-20% in the boiler. That said, I'm planning on making some navel orange essence today using 40% abv rum.

Chris,

With a potstill and 40% neutral in the boiler, what do you get off still? 80-90 proof?

You would usually have to scrape the burnt crap off your pot if you tried to get to 80 proof from an 80 proof charge.

[still_stirrin]

You would usually have to scrape the burnt crap off your pot if you tried to get to 80 proof from an 80 proof charge.

Really? I can get 90-95 proof gin off of the potstill with an 43%ABV charge...just like Odin's recipe says. No scraping necessary!

[NZChris]

You would usually have to scrape the burnt crap off your pot if you tried to get to 80 proof from an 80 proof charge.

Really? I can get 90-95 proof gin off of the potstill with an 43%ABV charge...just like Odin's recipe says. No scraping necessary!

Yeah, really.

You might get away with those numbers, but to get back to the original abv, you have to boil the pot dry, or, if you you have done your sums correctly, have got enough moisture from the fruit to save you. A typical Odin's Easy Gin from my still is well over 70% abv. Well before 90 proof, an OEG is getting pretty nasty off my still.

Don't confuse the abv at the spout with abv in the collection vessel, which is what I'm talking about. Ain't any parrots in my shed

[still_stirrin]

Don't confuse the abv at the spout with abv in the collection vessel, which is what I'm talking about. Ain't any parrots in my shed

I get it. The boiler can't "manufacture" alcohol.

And I'm not talking about the proof "at the spout". I'm talking about the "collected spirit" proof. I start with 2 liters and end up with about 1.5, maybe 1.65 liters. So, what's left in the boiler is water and the botanical heavies. It is NOT dry. My potstill puts out about a 125-135 proof at the spout to start (for a 40%ABV low wines), which obviously falls as the run progresses. So the collected spirit will be lower (and for a gin, that averages very close to 90 proof).

Remember: %ABV x volume = total alcohol. If you reduce the collected volume (by distillation), you can still collect at a higher proof and not run your boiler dry. It CAN be done...that's exactly how I do it.
ss

[der wo]

2 liters 40% are 800ml alcohol.
1.6 liters 45% are 720ml alcohol
So in the boiler is 0.4 liters with 80ml alcohol, what means 0.4 liters with 20% alcohol.

For me it looks wrong. The alcohol content of the stillage is way too high after distilling so long.
When I play with the potstill calc on the parent site, it says after collecting 1.4 liters the vapor has 1%, so in the boiler is less than 1% abv. (Internal reflux 0%)

In theory of course it works to distill it down from 40% to 45%, you get around 1.8l from 2l. But normally also a Geist needs a tails-cut.

[NZChris]

My orange essence got stopped with 13% abv still in the boiler because the rum tails were appearing. I wasn't expecting to get any more because my gins finish at about the same point, beyond which, the citrus gets sharp.

[der wo]

13% in the boiler means that the vapor has about 60%. It is a similar cut point like a spirit run of whisky or brandy.

[NZChris]

13% in the boiler means that the vapor has about 60%. It is a similar cut point like a spirit run of whisky or brandy.

Not in my shed it isn't. Brandy especially. My brouillis and bonne chauffe runs leave little alcohol in the boiler.

[FranklinNewhart]

This is an interesting thread and I came to it looking for a recipe for either Cedratine and/or Limincello. I just bought three bags of Lemons today off the discount shelf and I want to make a lemon drink. I looked on here for a recipe but didn't find anything. Went to Bing and looked there too. Found out how to make the Limoncello using the zest and found that they make something called Cedratine which is a drink from fermented Lemons and then distilled. I am thinking of combining the two processes. Take the zest off the lemons first and dry it in my Hydrator. I use that to make all my zest so I can keep a ready supply on hand. I keep bottles of dehydrated zest from tangerines I can only get at Christmas. Any way I was thinking of doing a sugar and lemon wash of about 60 litres or so at 15 % and then distilling it to get the Cedratine. Then taking that and using it to steep the zest in and add the sugar syrup and blend it down to around 20%. Any thoughts here on this. Am I on the right track here? If not then steer me right.

My daughter seen my new Reflux Still
Now she wants to be a Pole Dancer

[NZChris]

I thought Cedratine was lemon zest steeped in grape spirit, then distilled.

Limoncello is easier than what you are doing. I use fresh peel in neutral, nuke it once, strain it, add simple syrup, done in a day.

[der wo]

Take the zest off the lemons first and dry it in my Hydrator. I use that to make all my zest so I can keep a ready supply on hand. I keep bottles of dehydrated zest from tangerines I can only get at Christmas.

I would freeze them instead of drying. With zests often the flavor gets a bit musty. You need very light and fresh flavors. And those you loose with drying. But generally this is more a problem when you redistill mazerated zests or vapor infuse with them.

Are the zests of your lemons unwaxed?

[FranklinNewhart]

Take the zest off the lemons first and dry it in my Hydrator. I use that to make all my zest so I can keep a ready supply on hand. I keep bottles of dehydrated zest from tangerines I can only get at Christmas.

I would freeze them instead of drying. With zests often the flavor gets a bit musty. You need very light and fresh flavors. And those you loose with drying. But generally this is more a problem when you redistill mazerated zests or vapor infuse with them.

Are the zests of your lemons unwaxed?

I have no idea as if the lemons had wax or not. They where on the discount shelf and I bought them cheap.

[FranklinNewhart]

A quick update on my lemons. I took them today and just sliced them in two and shoved them down my juice extractor. The peelings I set aside and put them into my Dehydrator to dry them out. When that is done I will through them in the blender and grind them to pieces. People on here say you should not use the pulp portion of the zest but I have been using the whole skin for years and I like it that way. Any way the juice extractor has a bunch of other pulp that comes off as well. That I threw in a pot that was separate with a strainer in it. Boiled the living daylight out of that and got all the flavour I could. With the strainer I was able to take off the water and get rid of the pulp. The juice from the extractor and the boil from the pulp went into forty litres of water and I added sugar to bring it up to 15 %. By that time I had about 60 litres of liquid that was like a really sweet lemonade. It was hot, about 120 F. so we grabbed a few glasses and made hot toddies with it. I then added my own secret yeast nutrient recipe and ran it off into three carboys. I had some yeast I had recovered in the fridge so I made up a starter from some of what I had brewed. Went out and got a bucket of snow to cool it down and pitched the yeast into it. I will pitch the starter tomorrow and get it working.

When it is done I will have three runs for the still and I will be infusing that product with the zest I saved from my lemons. I will keep you up to date on my progress.

[der wo]

Take the zest off the lemons first and dry it in my Hydrator. I use that to make all my zest so I can keep a ready supply on hand. I keep bottles of dehydrated zest from tangerines I can only get at Christmas.

I would freeze them instead of drying. With zests often the flavor gets a bit musty. You need very light and fresh flavors. And those you loose with drying. But generally this is more a problem when you redistill mazerated zests or vapor infuse with them.

Are the zests of your lemons unwaxed?

I have no idea as if the lemons had wax or not. They where on the discount shelf and I bought them cheap.

At least in Europe, only organic-food lemons are unwaxed. If the lemon shines, it's waxed. I wouldn't use the peel of non organic lemons for any food or drink. They also contain pesticides and fungicides.

And btw I would not use the white of the peel. It's bitter. Perhaps you can remove the bitter taste with distillation, but without redistilling, your spirit will taste bitte. But if you like it this way, of course go ahead.

[Shine0n]

I have been giving this thread alot of thought and been reading today and came up with this.

I have an elevated false bottom I made for my 7.5 gal thumper to place fruit on while I make brandy. It sets in the upper 1/3 of the thumper and since it's winter the fruit isn't available untill june or july. Is this vapor infusion?
Since I'm on a rum kick as of now I'm thinking of adding the fruit of choice to impart a flavor in the rum instead of maceration.
The false bottom has been sitting for 2 months now and I haven't used it yet, so this week I plan on doing a rumsky and put some fresh fruit in there to see what happens.

[Shine0n]

I will add, once I can get organic lemon and orange I will give these options a go.