The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

[Badmotivator]

Hope that I can keep my hands and tasting thief away for a year

You could go what I did, no tap!
On my latest BadMo I simply cut a round barrel head and put it in with no holes. Only way in will be a drill later.

You scare me. That's hardcore. You made like a whisky coconut.

[Oldvine Zin]

You could go what I did, no tap!
On my latest BadMo I simply cut a round barrel head and put it in with no holes. Only way in will be a drill later.

No tap on mine just for that reason - thinking about cutting the bung flush to the head, but it would be a shame to destroy the work that Bad Mo put into that tapered bung.

OVZ

[nerdybrewer]

On the other hand, a half ounce taste once in a while couldn't hurt right?
Maybe I'll fill mine with the smoked corn / wheat / oats I just ran.
Have to admit to stealing a couple jiggers of that during the middle of the run.
Now that's a unique flavor!!
Really like it, but never had anything quite like it before.
I'm hoping to get enough keep to fill one of my larger barrels and the one BadMo was so generous to give to me.

[nerdybrewer]

I filled mine with my smoky corn, wheat, oats whisky and noticed it took over a gallon.
In fact it was a gallon plus about 80% of a bottle.
Does that sound right?
I had to wrap the bung with teflon tape, wasn't sure how hard I could whack it to get it to seal so reverted to the tape which is working fine.

[Badmotivator]

#24 was a 6-qt bain marie, so yeah, that sounds right. In the future I think you don't have to use the t-tape. You can give those pegs one good hard rap with a hammer and that'll seat them nicely, at least in my experience. Only worry if you see leakage that another harder tap doesn't fix, but I never have.

Looks pretty.

[Snackson]

Hope that I can keep my hands and tasting thief away for a year

You could go what I did, no tap!
On my latest BadMo I simply cut a round barrel head and put it in with no holes. Only way in will be a drill later.

Been thinking about doing this with a used barrel head. They're selling the Balcones barrel heads for $7.

[rgreen2002]

How big do you think the bain marie would have to be Snackson? I have one of the Balcones 5 gallon barrels... it's a good size compared to my Badmo bain marie. Interesting idea though.... Maybe a stockpot size...

I put a little beeswax on my Badmo plug - worked like a charm.

[Snackson]

How big do you think the bain marie would have to be Snackson? I have one of the Balcones 5 gallon barrels... it's a good size compared to my Badmo bain marie. Interesting idea though.... Maybe a stockpot size...

I put a little beeswax on my Badmo plug - worked like a charm.

8 quart maybe and cut it down is what I was thinking. I've got a CNC router so I can cut it to any size I need really.

[rgreen2002]

I've got a CNC router so I can cut it to any size I need really.

...now your just braggin!

[nerdybrewer]

You know how you can make a liquor bomb?
Fill a bottle and seal it up tight outside where it's freezing then bring it in and put it on a shelf to warm up.
Boom.
If it's never happened to you, don't let it.

Last night I woke up at midnight with that memory and thought of the Badmo barrel I had filled with freezing temperature whisky earlier in the day and brought inside and sat back in my laundry room.
I figured it would be a good thing to go take a look.
I don't know how much pressure these things can hold but it was doing ok when I checked on it.
I sat it up so the wood side was facing up for the rest of the night.
No sense tempting fate.
This morning when all was well I turned it back onto it's side.

[Badmotivator]

I don't know how much pressure these things can hold but it was doing ok when I checked on it.

Cool. Glad you caught it in time.

I don't know how much pressure they will take either, but I have a relevant story. I can't remember if I shared it already.

We had a long power outage and my house got cold. My barrel storage area got down to like 45F and stayed there for a few days. When power was restored and the temp went quickly back to 70F, many of my barrels cried in pain. There were little caramel tears sometimes around the rim, sometimes near the tap, near the peg, between staves... In one case the pressure forced a way through solid wood, likely in a place where the grain had a turbulent rather than laminar structure.

When the temperature stabilized everything calmed back down, but that was kind of scary. And there's a lesson, too: Don't Panic.

[Opdog]

I'm thinking about trying to make one of these in the near future. Does anyone see an issue with using a biscuit joiner and beech biscuits? The biscuits are diagonal grain slices of beechwood. As far as I know, they are not composite or glued together. I wouldn't glue them in as they will swell up and create a tight seal as they are exposed to water and then whatever I decide to put in the barrel. Another thought I had was to use a Kreg jig and stainless screws to pull the staves together.

Any thoughts or advice from the experts will be greatly appreciated.j

[yakattack]

Try to avoid mechanical fasteners ( screws, nails) as you are creating fail points. If anything you would be best served to use specific joinery, such as a dovetail, or another similar locking wood joint. But even simple tongue and groove will swell and seal because you are containing the edges of the head around the inside of the vessel.

[Badmotivator]

I'm thinking about trying to make one of these in the near future. Does anyone see an issue with using a biscuit joiner and beech biscuits?

Only this: if the biscuit is glued, and the location of the biscuit is on the wet side of the "red line" (the line of liquid penetration and sugar/color deposition in the wood) and the glue is dissolved (likely) and mobile (unlikely but possible), then it is possible that some glue will enter your spirit. I don't view this as a very serious danger. I think it is a low-probability, small-effect-size, zero-danger kind of worry.

Here is a photo of the red line in some ex-bourbon barrel staves I bought:

[Opdog]

Thanks! This entire thread is very impressive. I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into this. I have been following it for quite some time.

That is a great picture! It illustrates the point perfectly. I'll definitely keep that in mind.

I'm trying to find some more detailed info on biscuits themselves. The beech looks like it is simply pressed and dried, but I'm having some trouble determining if they use some kind of binder (glue) it the biscuit itself. I think I can adjust my biscuit cutter to make the fit pretty tight without having to use any glue. I need to order the insert. I'll give it a try in a week or so and report back.


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[Kelbor]

The Badmotivator came by my distillery yesteray so I could show him what not to da.Ha!

Great seeing you yesterday and thanks for coming by for a chat, treats, and gift!
I'm really excited to put something into this awesome barrel you brought by!

[Badmotivator]

The Badmotivator came by my distillery yesteray so I could show him what not to da.Ha!

Great seeing you yesterday and thanks for coming by for a chat, treats, and gift!
I'm really excited to put something into this awesome barrel you brought by!

Better not eat those sweets if you're going to keep squeezing through the manway into your pot.

Really, it was a treat for me to meet you and see your operation. I would gush a bunch but it would just get embarrassing.

Let's get together again some time for some tasting!

[Badmotivator]

If anyone is interested, I will be posting finished Badmotivator Barrels for sale in the classified section every now and then. First one just went up. Cheers.

[joeymac]

When selecting wood for this project, why does "quarter-sawn" matter?
In woodworking, one would use quarter sawn wood to expose much prettier medullar woodgran. Generally this is for looks. Does it really matter for makin likker?

[Badmotivator]

When selecting wood for this project, why does "quarter-sawn" matter?

The two ways for the spirit to move through the wood most easily are through capillaries (vertical in the tree) and through medullary rays (radial in the tree). Oak is great because the tyloses close up the capillary tubes pretty well in heartwood. In a standard barrel made with quartersawn oak the capillaries run barrel-end to barrel-end, and the medullary rays end up making a closed circle around the barrel. That is, neither points outward.

In a badmotivator barrel using quartersawn oak, both the capillaries and the medullaries are oriented in the same plane as the barrel head. Neither one is oriented in such a way as to channel the spirit from the inside to the air. If you used flat-sawn lumber you run the risk of having medullary rays conducting the spirit out the face of your barrel, increasing your loss rate.

I think that's right... let me know if I've screwed that up.

[yakattack]

Yup. More detailed then I would have given but ultimately correct. You can however wax. The outide of a barrel to reduce this loss.

Another reason is because of the way the wood. swells.

[joeymac]

But not all quarter sawn wood has no medullary rays exiting the face. By definition, quarter sawn wood has the age rings coming across the thickness of a board at anywhere from a 60-90 degree angle. Because medullary rays are perpendicular to the age rings, that means they cross the board at a complementary angle to the age rings. So for any planks with age rings very close to 90deg the medullary rays should mostly be within the plank - meaning what you say is true about the face being free from end grain and medullary rays. To get this we would need the absolute widest planks from the log available to ensure they contain age rings as close to 90-degrees as possible. But as the quarter sawn planks get narrower and the age rings cross at 80, 70, or 60 degrees across the board, then the medullary rays begin to exit the face with increasing frequency. At least that's my understanding of properly quarter sawn wood.

I wonder if there's a way to buy white oak with only 90 degree ring orientation and leave the narrower planks out of it.

See quartersaw video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvUPJPFg4wM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Badmotivator]

But not all quarter sawn wood has no medullary rays exiting the face. By definition, quarter sawn wood has the age rings coming across the thickness of a board at anywhere from a 60-90 degree angle. Because medullary rays are perpendicular to the age rings, that means they cross the board at a complementary angle to the age rings. So for any planks with age rings very close to 90deg the medullary rays should mostly be within the plank - meaning what you say is true about the face being free from end grain and medullary rays. To get this we would need the absolute widest planks from the log available to ensure they contain age rings as close to 90-degrees as possible. But as the quarter sawn planks get narrower and the age rings cross at 80, 70, or 60 degrees across the board, then the medullary rays begin to exit the face with increasing frequency. At least that's my understanding of properly quarter sawn wood.

I wonder if there's a way to buy white oak with only 90 degree ring orientation and leave the narrower planks out of it.

See quartersaw video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvUPJPFg4wM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

That video was nice. Thanks. And your insight is a good reminder to investigate the ring orientation of any quartersawn white oak I'm buying to minimize the more rift-y lumber. Additionally, because there will be differences with each board, I can use this information to improve the long-term function of the barrel head; at assembly, I can give the best boards preferential placement on the bottom ⅔ or ¾ of the barrel head and put any suspicious boards at the top of the barrel head, so that any increased loss they might cause will be limited to the first year.

Thanks again for bringing this up. I found it helpful.

[joeymac]

Why not buy 6/4 quarter sawn boards wide enough to make one solid disk. Seems like an aweful lot less work and you might be more likely to get a board from the center thick section of the log (less rift-y). You might also end up with less seepage and capillary action (reducing losses).

Another related thing concerning the beeswax:
Is it soluble in ethanol or does it impart off flavors to the spirit? Would it be a problem if you were to coat the outside end grain on the circumference of your disks before pounding them in? Perhaps you might be getting seepage into the wood from around the circumference where it's easy for the spirit to get into the grain with capillary action, and from there this might have the effect of reducing your effective thickness and gives you higher losses.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Nothing wrong with rift-y, it's the perfect 1/4.

I do mine from a big wide piece of 1/4, one piece heads.
I make them 1/16" larger in dia. that the pot and bash them in with a heavy mallet.
It actually swedges out the steel a tiny bit and no leaks at all.

[joeymac]

isn't 1/4 only 1/4" thick? I though 1" -1.25" was optimal to limit the losses.

[Badmotivator]

Lately I have been buying 5/4 and by the time the barrel head has been prepared it'll be between 1" and 1 ⅛" thick.

I have been using beeswax lately. It is a traditional material in cooperage. I have no fears (yet) about its effect on the spirit, but just for my peace of mind I will do a solubility test soon and report. I paint a strip of it between staves and paint the circumference as well. So far I have been happy with the results; I appear to have fewer seeping locations, but I changed some other processes at the same time, so no control on that experiment. When I press in my barrel heads using six pipe clamps (temporary until I get a shop press) the beeswax squeezes out a bit from both locations, and I just cut away the squeezages.

The reasons I am still making staves and joining them as opposed to making a solid disk were mentioned earlier in the thread, but I will repeat them. I am deeply concerned with seasoning the wood properly, and I think I am seasoning the wood better/faster in smaller pieces. By cutting my large boards into staves, I can remove any problem spots such as knots, use 2/3 of the board where there's a live edge, etc. and thereby potentially make more efficient use of the board. I also like the look a little more, warts and all. There is a lot to be said for solid pieces though (no joinery!), and I'm thinking about it.

[Badmotivator]

Just did a quick solubility test. I have a dish with 10g beeswax melted into the bottom and cooled. Poured in a bunch of very high-proof heads. Rubbed the wax in the heads for 5 minutes. By feel I could not detect any interaction between the heads and the wax. Dumped the heads and dehydrated the wax dish. My 0.1g scale did not detect a difference in weight after the test.

[The Baker]

WAX! God forbid.

The idea of a wooden barrel is that there is some interaction with the air.

A waxed barrel is not an effective barrel at all, you might as well use a jar, which is a lot cheaper.

I had a cooper look at a barrel for me and he said, 'Waxed ends. Poor quality'.
Geoff

[joeymac]

Yeah, screw using wax to fix leaks or seal joints... better to just let everything leak out onto the floor.