Dunder Pit Starter Culture...

[Guerilla Distillah]

OK, let me begin by asking politely that the "Forum Nazis" lurking here refrain from further chastising me for repeating a question ask back in 1963. I have recently asked several questions here after exhaustive searches and finding nothing but responses from the time when dinosaurs roamed the earth or simply unsatisfactory answers to my questions. If you don't have anything more productive then "HEY NEWBIE, asked and answered... do some research and quit wasting our time"... please simply go back to whatever it was you were doing before you stumbled across my quest for knowledge....that's WHY we are here!!

All right, that unpleasantness behind me... I wish to start a live Dunder Pit and was hoping that someone out there might be willing to send me a 4 to 6 ounce culture of inoculant from your thriving jungle pit. Or, if someone out there has finally dial Dan how to properly start this culture without hiring a witch doctor and burying shit in the yard, crossing your fingers and hoping... might chime in either publicly or privately and give me the skinny. Thanks in advance for your help, and I apologize for the negative tone at the beginning of this post. Just frustrating.

GD

[still_stirrin]

...how to properly start this culture without hiring a witch doctor and burying shit in the yard, crossing your fingers and hoping...

But that's how it's done...

Or...get a large crock and put your rum backset into it and cover with a cheesecloth. Set it in your basement and wait. On your next rum ferment, scoop a little of the goop and put it into the wash. It'll bring lots of flavors over to the new ferment. Then, after stripping the next rum, add the backset back to the crock. Repeat as often as possible.
ss

[Guerilla Distillah]

Will do just that. I bought a 30 gallon poly barrel and put a bulkhead fitting about one third the way up from the bottom for a ball valve "tap". I keep my fermentation room, an upstairs bedroom in my house, about 80°. I'm just going to cut a large hole in the screw on lid, and duct tape a stainless steel mesh over the hole. I know it will happen eventually, but it still pretty chilly here, and I would love to get a jumpstart on the spring. I know someone out there has to have a live pit going they wouldn't mind taking a cup of liquid and putting in a screwtop now gene bottle and shipping it?

GD

[Badmotivator]

So you want to know a) which bugs you need, b) how to get them, and c) how to help them proliferate.

I can help with the first two. My notes say:

Species found in muck pits:

Clostridium butyricum (also called saccharobutyricum) (buy Japanese probiotic pills)

Propionibacterium Freudenreichii (buy cheese culture or emmentaler)

Lactobacillus fermentum (sourdough?)
fructivorans (beer and wine?)
hilgardii (wine, dairy)
viridescens

[nerdybrewer]

So you want to know a) which bugs you need, b) how to get them, and c) how to help them proliferate.

I can help with the first two. My notes say:

Species found in muck pits:

Clostridium butyricum (also called saccharobutyricum) (buy Japanese probiotic pills)

Propionibacterium Freudenreichii (buy cheese culture or emmentaler)

Lactobacillus fermentum (sourdough?)
fructivorans (beer and wine?)
hilgardii (wine, dairy)
viridescens

So mixing all that stuff together and keeping it warm ought to get something growing right?
I've got a container with sourdough starter, milk and probiotics sitting on top of the water heater, wonder what will happen?

[Guerilla Distillah]

Thanks BM, EXACTLY what I needed to hear. Will begin sourcing them asap...

GD

So you want to know a) which bugs you need, b) how to get them, and c) how to help them proliferate.

I can help with the first two. My notes say:

Species found in muck pits:

Clostridium butyricum (also called saccharobutyricum) (buy Japanese probiotic pills)

Propionibacterium Freudenreichii (buy cheese culture or emmentaler)

Lactobacillus fermentum (sourdough?)
fructivorans (beer and wine?)
hilgardii (wine, dairy)
viridescens

[NZChris]

So mixing all that stuff together and keeping it warm ought to get something growing right?

If it's in a good substrate, yes.

Dunder.
Lees from the wash.
Semi-solid materials settled out of dunder.
Cane trash.

[Badmotivator]

If it's in a good substrate, yes.

Dunder.
Lees from the wash.
Semi-solid materials settled out of dunder.
Cane trash.

Also, don't forget that those bacteria are anaerobes and they all like to be in the neighborhood of 90 F, pH in the neighborhood of 6.

[nerdybrewer]

If it's in a good substrate, yes.

Dunder.
Lees from the wash.
Semi-solid materials settled out of dunder.
Cane trash.

Also, don't forget that those bacteria are anaerobes and they all like to be in the neighborhood of 90 F, pH in the neighborhood of 6.

I'm sort of making a "starter" in a small container, around 85 - 90F.
Then when I see it's active I'll add it to the dunder.

[Guerilla Distillah]

If it's in a good substrate, yes.

Dunder.
Lees from the wash.
Semi-solid materials settled out of dunder.
Cane trash.

Also, don't forget that those bacteria are anaerobes and they all like to be in the neighborhood of 90 F, pH in the neighborhood of 6.

I'm sort of making a "starter" in a small container, around 85 - 90F.
Then when I see it's active I'll add it to the dunder.

I'm WAAAAAY too impetuous for THAT hooey... i'm jumping right in. I'll report back. Thanks again for the great, positive, instructive responses.

GD

[Guerilla Distillah]

So in your opinion which should I seek? ALL of them, and just see what wins??

GD

So you want to know a) which bugs you need, b) how to get them, and c) how to help them proliferate.

I can help with the first two. My notes say:

Species found in muck pits:

Clostridium butyricum (also called saccharobutyricum) (buy Japanese probiotic pills)

Propionibacterium Freudenreichii (buy cheese culture or emmentaler)

Lactobacillus fermentum (sourdough?)
fructivorans (beer and wine?)
hilgardii (wine, dairy)
viridescens

[NZChris]

Viridescens would be the most important one. Google it.

[Guerilla Distillah]

Viridescens would be the most important one. Google it.

I googled and only found salamanders. Did find this...http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0380.x/pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and in it stated that the most important were Propionibacterium and Lactobacillus but never mentioned the Viridescens. Does it go by another name? Forgive my ignorance, microbiology is not my wheelhouse. thanks

GD

[Guerilla Distillah]

ok so I ordered the Propion bacterium on KablAmazon, got my wife to ask her mom(both Japanese)to send me some Clostridium Butyricum capsules from a local druggist and my local homebrew store has Lacto cultures. Could not source the last three at all. But at least progress. And it FEELS science.

GD

[Badmotivator]

ok so I ordered the Propion bacterium on KablAmazon, got my wife to ask her mom(both Japanese)to send me some Clostridium Butyricum capsules from a local druggist and my local homebrew store has Lacto cultures. Could not source the last three at all. But at least progress. And it FEELS science.

GD

It does feel science!

According to Rev. Arroyo, C. Butyricum is the boss.

I added a whole bunch of things to my muck pit, including the probiotic pills that you're getting from Japan. I only wish I had the chops to determine with some certainty that I have an active culture of all of those bacteria. Shits funky though.

[NZChris]

Fructivorans and hilgardii might be in malolactic starters if your home brew shop has them.

Try pet shops for salamanders

[Badmotivator]

Fructivorans and hilgardii might be in malolactic starters if your home brew shop has them.

Try pet shops for salamanders

I was curious, so I looked around a bit. Looks like most malolactic starters for sale are Oenococcus oeni.

[Padre_nz]

i have started my first dunder pit (controlled?) in a 5 gallon carboy sterilized it with some starsan and did a stripping run.... added some Yakult (Lactobacillus casei Shirota? unsure if the subsec is ok) and some cheese bacteria (Propionibacteria Shermanii) because i read a post here that those are two that are recommended.... stuck a air lock as when i checked wiki (hahahah) they both were anaerobic and "generally nonsporulating". any way after a month and a half it has a couple of bubbles on the top and nothing else should i expect it to go funky? or because they are nonsporulating it will stay that way? or i have have a biologically dead carboy?

[Jimy Dee]

Well can any of you folks who were adding stuff to your fresh dunder pits give us a feed back on how things are going. Reason being is that I have my own dunder sitting in a 5 gallon bucket and nothing is happening to it - having said that it is outdoors and I live in Ireland so we do not have hot balmy tropical weather to encourage the type of growth I expect is required to nurture a dunder pit. If adding the funky stuff works I will look into sourcing some if it and moving my dunder bucket in doors to a boiler house where the heat is continuously around 25C. So please tell us all how it is getting on.

[der wo]

I think the low temp is the problem. Not a general problem, but it gets slow.
Is the bucket open? Many members here have a towel over the bucket instead of a lid.

Here I have three threads going with my "controlled" infections:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=64615
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=65858
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=66527

[Vanmark]

Jimy, you need to inoculate it with something, especially in a colder climate. I live in Denmark so we are probably in a similar temperature. I also keep the bucket of funk in the basement where it's usually no more than 12c or so. But things happen, albeit slowly. I added some funky danish cheese that quickly formed a nice lacto layer on the top.

I would also caution against getting too hung up on trying to make something too similar to a tropical rum. Try out the method but remember to enjoy the unique terroir of Ireland. If you want a Caribbean rum go to the bottle shop.

[NZChris]

There may be a problem with dunder that we have not been aware of.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=56422

[Jimy Dee]

Gents
I have been considering this and I think I will forget about the funk. I dont have the heat, our weather is shite in comparison to the carribean, the bucket is sealed and if I leave it open knowing my luck some rat will drink it and/or fall in and die in it. Thanks for the recommendations but I am probably a philistine and will stick with ordinary dunder. Can any one categorically tell me if the funk really leads to a major difference?
Jim

[Yummyrum]

Gents
Thanks for the recommendations but I am probably a philistine and will stick with ordinary dunder. Can any one categorically tell me if the funk really leads to a major difference?
Jim

Jimy , I'm going to be the party pooper and say that Funky Dunder does not make a major difference ....perhaps I'm a philistine too but I'm buggered if I could tell if it even makes a subtle difference ........going to quickly hide now
I had all sorts of Buckets of various coloured "things" , most smelled good , some smelled disgusting....none did anything for me I'm afraid .

IMHO things like Oaking and Cuts will make a shit tone more difference than the subtle art of infecting your Dunder ......but then I do use all Molasses and not the weak almost all sugar bland Rums that some prefer . .....perhaps an infected neutral is easier to discern than a strong full flavoured Rum with the same infection

Back on topic , I saw on Aussie Distiller Forum ( yeah I know ) where an Aussie Commercial Rum Distillery owner was trialing some vials of Rum Dunder innoculant .That was a few years ago , I never did see the results .....but the stuff is available specifically for the job in vials .....does it work ? ......Maybe if you've spent a fortune on it , you might want to think so .....good sales point anyway .

[der wo]

Gents
I have been considering this and I think I will forget about the funk. I dont have the heat, our weather is shite in comparison to the carribean, the bucket is sealed and if I leave it open knowing my luck some rat will drink it and/or fall in and die in it. Thanks for the recommendations but I am probably a philistine and will stick with ordinary dunder. Can any one categorically tell me if the funk really leads to a major difference?
Jim

I think it makes a major difference. At least if you add it to the low wines. If you use it for mashing, many of the flavors will dissappear during fermentation. But there is much rum made without infections. It's ok without too.
You should leave it open to atmosphere, but hinder animals to come in. For example a bucket covered with a towel. You don't need tropic temps. Normal room temp is all you need.

Edit: To have the bucket open is not only important to get the infection, but also to see the infection. The pellicle will grow only with contact to air.

[Vanmark]

A rat might not be the worst addition to your dunder. Many a drowned creature have added their funk to dunder pits. I'm only kind of joking....

[Jimy Dee]

Yummy - for those who dont know Yummy is a rum master.

Der Wo - what amount of funk do you put into strip?

Vanmark - what critter is the best for funk!?

[Pikey]

..........Back on topic , I saw on Aussie Distiller Forum ( yeah I know ) where an Aussie Commercial Rum Distillery owner was trialing some vials of Rum Dunder innoculant .That was a few years ago , I never did see the results .....but the stuff is available specifically for the job in vials .....does it work ? ......Maybe if you've spent a fortune on it , you might want to think so .....good sales point anyway .

Aha - "Ownership bias" - great tool in sales and one of the main reasons it is so hard to talk sense into fanatics, - they've invested so much money / time / effort into their views, they "Own" them ! In these days of "Elf an Safety" gone rabid, it's not easy to see how any commercial distillery could get "infected" ingredients into regular usage without attracting some objections - but you say this WAS a commercial Distillery ?

[der wo]

Der Wo - what amount of funk do you put into strip?

25% infected dunder/backset, 75% low wines. This is the maximum infection I used up to now. I started with 10%/90% and it had a strong effect. But because it had no downsides, I thought why not using more of it. But the difference between using 10 or 25% is not so much. I am not sure why. Perhaps because adding dunder not only adds something. It also lowers the abv. And a lower abv leads to less taste transfer and forces you to use more rectification or it turns out tailsy. That's why I recommend, that the mashes are not too low in abv. I try to have 10%abv. Then my low wines are 30% and I have a bit space for dilution.
But I have to say here, all my infection experience is with grain backset, not with Rum dunder. I currently have Rum dunder here and it is already infected. But it will need 2 or 3 months until I do the first spirit run.

[RafaelArroyo]

Could the problem with using dunder as a started culture be with the yeast? Rums that make heavy use of dunder bacteria (like Jamaican grand arome) use schizosaccaromyces, which grows slower and doesn't outcompete them like regular sac yeast will. I think schizosaccaromyces is also a bit more tolerant of the higher pH's the bacteria like.