My infected Rum

[der wo]

This is the pit with potatoes, I see yours has a white top and mine is red like your yogurt backset pit. I wonder why that is?

Perhaps it is a matter of time? My yoghurt pit has developed many white spots in the meantime. And my new pit (soil and potato) looks similar to yours, but also has a few white spots already (it started at places where soil was swimming on the surface). My very impressive looking white pit was not only infected with potato but also with old backset from my peated malt, and this one had much ingredients (yoghurt, cheese, potato and raw malted barley), I don't know what's working there. The basic color is still white, but it's getting more and more blue and black and I see everywhere on the surface brown crumbs or powder. And it's thick and extreme uneven, hills and valleys. I will post pictures before I mash it in a month...

[der wo]

I did the spirit run a few days ago and now finished the cuts.

I distilled it with a short (50cm) packed reflux column. During the run I decided to rectify it to a higher abv than planned. The most time I collected at around 80%abv, because a lower abv had tailsy off-flavors. Because the flavor of a pure molasses wash without added sugar is very intense, I think this is the way to go. And reading about rum distilleries, it's also the way they do it. At least the pure molasses Rums. Rum agricole (whole cane juice) is another story probably.

Because I will let evaporate much during aging I didn't toss out much fores. The fores were unusual strong burning in the nose. And different: Normal fores sting immediately in the nose, those fores sting after a few seconds. Like if you eat something with very hot mustard and with delay it burns in your nose.
The fraction after the fores had some grassy notes like Rum agricole and Tequila and a very pleasant bakery rum flavor. Then fruit flavors dominated and then it turned more and more soft, molasses, sweet. The last jars had some dusty aromas perhaps like cinnamon, almost if it was already aged on wood a bit. And then musty and yeasty flavors came up. I hope I stopped at the right point.

In our hobby we often experience surprises. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. We often fail with attempts to copy a commercial product, for example we use the same grain bill, but then we get something completely different.
This time I am really surprised, because I got really similar flavors like I know from the Hampden Gold rum (a young and cheap high ester rum. Probably a new make with added caramel...).

I collected tails at around 45% and will add them to the finished washes of the next project: Infected dunder sugarhead.

[Shine0n]

Congratulations on a successful run with good results!
I'm hoping to get my second strip run done tomorrow, that should get me to 7 gallons low wines.
I'm thinking of what you said about all molasses rum which I haven't done yet but now I think I will finish this experiment by doing so.
My pit is nice and funky, smells good and looks like something dead in it, (not really)
I'm thinking of adding 2 maybe 3 different dunders to the final spirit run? The potatoes and some lacto from malted barley and some infected HBB backset and the Swiss cheese pits.
Do you think positive about this? I'm not sure but I think that a real dunder pit has some of everything in it and might benefit from a multitude of funk!?!?

[der wo]

I don't know how you store your low wines. Your experiment with the five dunder pits makes sense mostly, if you have a jug or whatever for every different mixture of low wines and dunder. Then you can smell, which way of infecting you like most.
And then just before distilling throw it all together into the still. Experiment finished...

[Shine0n]

I have my low wines in whatever jars I have available, mostly quart mason jars and my dunder is labeled in a big clothes tote with lid.
I will come back tomorrow and put the dunder in another bin and put the Swiss cheese culture and let it go until???

The dunder pit with potatoes has become very nice, the smells of fruits and some others I can't explain but very pleasant. I think will be a fine addition to the spirit run.

I think I'll make 2- 5 gallon pits with this dunder from today's strip. this should bring my low wines to 10 gallons at 35%
1- Swiss cheese culture
2- lacto from malted barley

Two more strips and I should have enough low wines to complete this experiment.
I still plan on at least one all moll wash for this, how many gallons of moll do you think for a 15 gal wash.
Our feed moll is 43% sugars but I'm not sure how much is fermentable. I'll find out soon enough.
At 10$ per gallon it can get quite expensive to do 4 strip runs but may be worth the price in the end

[nerdybrewer]

I have my low wines in whatever jars I have available, mostly quart mason jars and my dunder is labeled in a big clothes tote with lid.
I will come back tomorrow and put the dunder in another bin and put the Swiss cheese culture and let it go until???

The dunder pit with potatoes has become very nice, the smells of fruits and some others I can't explain but very pleasant. I think will be a fine addition to the spirit run.

I think I'll make 2- 5 gallon pits with this dunder from today's strip. this should bring my low wines to 10 gallons at 35%
1- Swiss cheese culture
2- lacto from malted barley

Two more strips and I should have enough low wines to complete this experiment.
I still plan on at least one all moll wash for this, how many gallons of moll do you think for a 15 gal wash.
Our feed moll is 43% sugars but I'm not sure how much is fermentable. I'll find out soon enough.
At 10$ per gallon it can get quite expensive to do 4 strip runs but may be worth the price in the end

They charge you $10 per gallon for feed molly??
Highway robbery!!
Feed store here charges $4.25 per gallon.

[Shine0n]

If that were the case I would do nothing but all moll washes but unfortunately it isn't that way in Virginia.

[der wo]

I still plan on at least one all moll wash for this, how many gallons of moll do you think for a 15 gal wash.
Our feed moll is 43% sugars but I'm not sure how much is fermentable.

0.3l/0.37kg (per liter final mash volume) blackstrap molasses, a bit nutrients and calcium carb were solved with a bit boiling water and then topped up with cold water. SG 1.139. Fresh bakers yeast. The smell of the ferment was a bit like elderberry or cassis lemonade. The FG was 1.065. The SG-FG calc says this means 9.6% alcohol.
I stripped a little more than 1/3 boiler volume, 29% abv low wines, the abv of the wash calculated by the stripping result is 9.9%.

The second and third wash I used less molli (0.25l per liter final wash volume), perhaps a mistake. But perhaps the added dunder (I only added dunder the second and third wash) would have raised the SG in an area where it would cause problems, I don't know. I got 7% alcohol.

My molasses is 45% sugars.

[der wo]

The 3 dunder pits 8.7.:

old backset bucket

yoghurt

soil

And 29.7.:

old backset bucket

yoghurt

soil

I now filled 3 fermenters with the 3 different dunders (without pellicle) and added raw cane sugar for max. 10% abv. And nutes and calcium carbonate. Then I aerated and pitched a yeast starter (fresh bakers yeast). Hopefully the yeast will prevail against the bacterias. If not, I will heat up each ferment and pitch again.

[still_stirrin]

Uh....(erp!)...you plan to "drink" what comes out of those?

I guess the classic rums all start life like that. But it sure doesn't look very appetizing. And maybe, what you don't know won't hurt you...or, will it?
ss

[der wo]

I never had a fail with infections. So I try a bit more this time. Yes, perhaps I exaggerate a bit.

[bartus-h]

Very interesting! I am still trying to find molasses here (and will check the ebay link, thanx!). I was also wondering how you know that in the final product there are no toxins? Since there is no control over the infections and the elements they create?

[der wo]

I am not able to hold against this really proofs. Only indicates:
- there is "some" control over the infections and elements. At least at the beginning of the development of the dunder.
- the Rum producers do this since generations. I never heard of poisoning.
- the developed congeners/esters are poisonous. But it's like with a "normal" Rum, they are still only low concentrated. Less than 1%.
- the toxins produced by fungi are solids and don't come over into the distillate. And anyway many of them get destroyed by the distillation temperature.

[der wo]

Those are difficult ferments... Starting it was difficult and maintain it too. Only one of the three buckets is fermenting as usual and smells nicely. The other two will stuck before fermenting dry, one probably after fermenting 2/3 of the sugar, the other probably after 1/2. And especially the 1/2 one has developed a carcass and chlorine smell. Also its dunder pit since the pellicle was damaged when I siphoned the dunder for the wash. I added copper carbonate and it really helped even in this heavy case again (Thanks again Bagasso for your "the answer was copper" thread). But I don't know, what I am getting this time. Only because I fighted successful a problem doesn't mean, that everything is perfect now. I know I provoked all gods of spirits against me, when I decided not to sterilize the dunder for a 100% infected dunder sugarhead...
I don't want to cook this stinky soup (my wife would kill me...) and then pitch again. Perhaps I will try to feed slowly two yeast starters with this poisonous soup to get used to it and hope that then they will help their buddies. I never had a problem with too much yeast.

[der wo]

It's fermenting slowly. For speeding it up I prepared a yeast starter and feeded it slowly. It's working. It has sped up a bit. But especially looking at the hot temps I have here, it's slow. It's smelling better and better the more alcohol is produced.
I filled a bit of the dunders without pellicle in bottles (the amount I will use to dilute the low wines), added copper carbonate, disposed of the rests and cleaned the buckets to get rid of the smell. We have a visitor tomorrow... During my infection experiments I never had a carcass smell. I think the problem was, that when I siphoned off the dunder for the washes, large pieces of the pellicle sticked at the walls of the bucket and started to mold at the undersurface.

[NZChris]

I've had a rotting flesh smell from dunder when the pH went over 7.

[Corsaire]

Perhaps this is where the stories of cadavers thrown in dunder pits originate? I couldn't imagine anyone throwing dead goats in muck pits on purpose...

[Yummyrum]

Keep up the interesting work der wo......you would make Louis Pasteur proud

[der wo]

I've had a rotting flesh smell from dunder when the pH went over 7.

Perhaps you hit the nail. I have 6.5 now. I don't know when the pH rised. I didn't want to stick my pH-meter through the pellicle. The washes have a good pH, but the dunder is not acidic enough. I added now 1ml sulphuric acid into 1l dunder. It brought the pH down only to 6. It seems there is a lot of buffer capacity in my dunder. I will add more probably.

[Yummyrum]

......It seems there is a lot of buffer capacity in my Dunder

Indeed , I've been saying this for a while . The more you recycle your Dunder the more of a buffer it becomes .
Supprised yours is so high though ... but you did add carbonates I suppose .
Molasses is also a huge buffer and the more of it you add the more it buffers . This is why folk like me and Saltbushbill don't stuff around with shells and pH because the Rum will self regulate at the right pH around 5.5 run after run after run after run .

[Corsaire]

Well according to this article jamaican distillers pay close attention to the ph of their dunder. Supposedly they can halt or encourage the formation of esters by regulating the acidity. The only mention is the addition of marl, nothing to lower ph. Does the ph drop over time if you don't add fresh dunder?

[der wo]

......It seems there is a lot of buffer capacity in my Dunder

Indeed , I've been saying this for a while . The more you recycle your Dunder the more of a buffer it becomes .
Supprised yours is so high though ... but you did add carbonates I suppose .

Yes. When I started the pits, the dunder was very acidic, and I rised it with calcium hydroxide and carbonate to 5.5. Then I thought it would drop again due to the acids produced by the bacterias. But perhaps solving the carbonate on the bottom of the pit was faster than the production of acids.

corsaire,
other, more detailed sources (the Arroyo papers) mention the use of sulphuric acid.

[der wo]

Two of the washes reached about 80-85% of the possible abv (calculated by OG and FG), one only 45-50%. But all three smell nicely now.
I added now feints and sulphuric acid (4ml per l wash). Surprisingly there is still a low activity in the fermenters. It smells great. Perhaps I will strip them tomorrow.

About the use of sulphuric acid as catalyst for esterification I wrote a few things in this thread:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=67010
I highly recommend sulphuric acid. Be careful, wear gloves and glasses, when you use it. When you pour it into a wash, it will hiss (exothermic reaction), but won't spout. If you pour water (or whatever) to the acid it tends to spout. Don't do that.

[Corsaire]

Thabk you for your answers der wo. I'll try and find theze arroyo papers, I've seen them mentioned before. Unfortunately I'm at work and can't start researching right away.

I've gathered from your posts that the most efficient way is to add infected backset to the low wines. If I see pictures of caribbean pot stills they have two thumpers. Do you suppose the thumpers get charged with infected backset? Or would the esters escape with the fores this way?

I haven't got a thumper (yet), so I can't test this for myself at the moment...

[kiwi Bruce]

About the use of sulphuric acid as catalyst for esterification [/u]

As you said...BE VERY CAREFUL USING SULFURIC ACID...USE ALL THE PROTECTIVE GEAR !

H2SO4 Sulfuric acid, used to be an over the counter item, here in the US, Pep boys had it. I believe it's becoming harder to get now, however we may be able to use an organic acid... citric , malic etc and a sulfuric salt like magnesium sulfate (epsom salts) it's the cation, the SO4 molecule, that does the work as a catalyst. We should have an organic chemist or six, here on HD, who may be able to tell us for sure.

[kiwi Bruce]

I've had a rotting flesh smell from dunder when the pH went over 7.

Don't give up on this...and push the pH down to 5.5 or 5. (use sulfuric if you can still find it at home.) From everything I've read so far, that smell is the beginning of the process. Your pot is developing organic fatty acids that are vital to the formation of esters. So pong and all, looks like you have a winner !

Chris, if your in Auckland...I used to get my jewelry supplies from Johnson Matthey, they should carry sulfuric acid, if they are still in business.

[der wo]

kiwi bruce,
this reaction is called the "Fischer-Speier esterification":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E ... rification" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[der wo]

Thabk you for your answers der wo. I'll try and find theze arroyo papers, I've seen them mentioned before. Unfortunately I'm at work and can't start researching right away.

I've gathered from your posts that the most efficient way is to add infected backset to the low wines. If I see pictures of caribbean pot stills they have two thumpers. Do you suppose the thumpers get charged with infected backset? Or would the esters escape with the fores this way?

I haven't got a thumper (yet), so I can't test this for myself at the moment...

I never heard of that they add dunder to low wines or in the thumper. So I don't think they do this. Perhaps because it's inefficient first to distill, then to dilute again. That's perhaps why they never thought about doing this. Everything I have read is about adding dunder to the wash, either from the beginning or at the end of fermentation.

Here a few pdfs:

Maza_Gomez_thesis.pdf

(1.1 MiB) Downloaded 193 times

ProductionOfHeavyRums.pdf

(136.56 KiB) Downloaded 277 times

Arroyo-the-production-of-heavy-bodied-rum.pdf

(822.26 KiB) Downloaded 201 times

[der wo]

Stripping runs of the dunder sugarheads:

First the wash with the "old Malt Whisky backset bucket" -dunder:
When opening the fermenter I recognized that there is still much sweat smell. So the esterification of the butyric acid isn't complete. I didn't fear I would get a sweat smelling distillate, but I thought I give it a bit heat and time for esterification, that I get more esters at the end. I heated the insulated potstill up to short before boiling and then switched it off for an hour. The agitator was running all the time. Then I stripped like normal. The first distillate had a very rummy aroma, then it became more fruit gum like. Then it became less fruity and therefore a bit flavorless, where I hoped for molasses flavor. Probably because it's not a molasses wash but a dunder sugarhead. I collected 3.5l low wines per 10l charge.

Then the wash with the yoghurt starter -dunder:
This is the nicest smelling wash of all three. No sweat or whatever. Nevertheless I decided for exact the same stripping procedure like the first strip, because I want to compare. The first distillate had a grassy apple flavor. Of course also Rum flavor, but less than the first strip. Then it became creamy fruity. Not much Rum or molasses flavor. I again collected 3.5l low wines per 10l charge.

The last was the wash with the "soil and potato" dunder, which stalled and smelled a bit like rotten flesh:
It still smells a bit ugly. I again used the same stripping procedure, but collected less low wines due to the lower abv. The first distillate was synthetic fruity and agressive stinging in the nose. Then it became more and more neutral, not much Rum or molasses flavor. Per 10l wash I collected 2.5l low wines at horrible low 16.2%. This tells me I had 4.5% in the wash. But only 2% was fermented alcohol, 2.5% alcohol was from the added feints.

The good thing is, I really can taste what I did with the dunder. I can taste the lactic esters of the yoghurt-dunder. I can taste the butyric esters of the soil dunder. And probably I can taste not only the butyric esters but also the propionic esters (Rum aroma) of the old backset dunder, which also contained cheese with holes (propionic bacteria). This is really fantastic.
There was never a glue smell. I don't think I will have to cut many fores. The low wines are very acidic (pH 4 - 4.5). Good for more esterification.

The bad thing is, that dunder and raw sugar is no replacement for molasses. I am not sure if the final spirit will be identifiable as Rum with such little molasses flavor.

But probably it will be a very interesting blending spirit. I for sure will add it to Rum. But perhaps even to grain spirits.

My plan now is to add to the low wines a bit of the each belonging infected dunder and a bit sulphuric acid. The now higher abv will probably create much esterification. In my experience this should be the moment when the flavors really explode. I am no sure, if it will work with the very weak third low wines, but I am sure it will work with the first two low wines.
Then I pour everything together for the spirit run.

[der wo]

I added per 10 liter low wines 2.5l infected dunder. Then 80ml sulphuric acid brought the pH down to 2.5. The two low wines with the good abv showed a massive rise of flavors.

The "old backset bucket" -low wines smell now incredible fruity, the same like before, but much stronger, too strong to enjoy. It's the only low wines identifiable as Rum IMO.

The "yoghurt" -low wines have changed, they developed a mild mango like and creamy enjoyable fruit flavor, much more different from the other low wines than before I added the dunder.

The low abv "soil" -low wines haven't change much, it's a sharp fruit flavor, more but not much more like before adding the dunder to the low wines. Probably too low abv for a stronger effect.

The flavors confirm clearly, that there is much control over the type of esters, even if we let live the dunder for a long time like 2.5 months, by infecting it with things, which contain the right bacterias. I wasn't sure, if the "yoghurt" dunder is really still dominated by lactic bacteria. But the result is 100% clear. And I am 90% sure, that I had active propionic bacteria in the "old backset bucket" -dunder. But to be sure would need a comparison of two dunders, one infected with a cheese with holes, the other with a similar cheese but without holes. Or simply buy propionic bacteria from cheese makers.

The spirit run will be challenging. How to make cuts when you distill a concentrate, which you probably want to blend in small amounts to different spirits?