Average cracked corn yields with enzymes?

[butterpants]

Run a few mash experiments on a pure corn product and I seem to be stuck at 1.040 original gravity. Just can't get much higher... BUT I have some stringent parameters. Just wondering what experienced folk are getting with similar methods.

My process:

1) Bring 11 gallons fairly hard local tap water to a rolling boil in a fired false bottom keggle. 2 TBS gypsum added.

2) Add in 25# cracked corn from Tractor Supply. I do not mill it down further as I want to retain the lauter capability of my tun and false bottom.

3) Temp stabilizes @185F. Add high temp SEBStar HTL @ ~12ml. Insulate tun once fire off, stir 2 minutes. Cover. I don't adjust pH at this stage.

4) Wait 1 hour. Stir and remove tun insulation.

5) Wait 2 hours. Add 1 gallon backset, dropping pH/adding flavor. Add ~12ml SEBAmyl GL, stir 2 minutes. Temp will be @140F

6) Wait 2 hours. Drain off/lauter via false bottom/gravity and electric pump to plate chiller.

7) Pitch yeast.


This process is fairly easy and has been producing a fine wash... BUT none of my tweaks get the gravity up (Tested with a refractometer, confirmed via hydrometer).

I don't mind increasing a step an hour or two but don't think I want to go overnight mash unless the starch liberation and conversion increase was profound.

I'm afraid that further milling from cracked will limit lauter ability and I'm very much not ok with that. The quick draining, batch style via false bottom is really nice. Going back to squeezing grains in a mop wringer is off the table for this.

I think I've got my enzyme conditions good and usually over dose a little bit. No pH readings were taken through.

Corn is so stupid cheap I've thought about upping the grist but it's already at 2lbs/gallon. Don't know if it would be worth my time to add more or if it would just mean more sweet wort sucked up by the grain matrix.

Guess I could bump it with sugar or even DME but I'm just resistant. I'd like a unique product.

I don't need the theoretical limits, just in practical experience, what are people using cracked corn getting? Am I being greedy? I'd be happy with 1.065

[BayouShine]

Run a few mash experiments on a pure corn product and I seem to be stuck at 1.040 original gravity. Just can't get much higher... BUT I have some stringent parameters. Just wondering what experienced folk are getting with similar methods.

My process:

1) Bring 11 gallons fairly hard local tap water to a rolling boil in a fired false bottom keggle. 2 TBS gypsum added.

2) Add in 25# cracked corn from Tractor Supply. I do not mill it down further as I want to retain the lauter capability of my tun and false bottom.

3) Temp stabilizes @185F. Add high temp SEBStar HTL @ ~12ml. Insulate tun once fire off, stir 2 minutes. Cover. I don't adjust pH at this stage.

4) Wait 1 hour. Stir and remove tun insulation.

5) Wait 2 hours. Add 1 gallon backset, dropping pH/adding flavor. Add ~12ml SEBAmyl GL, stir 2 minutes. Temp will be @140F

6) Wait 2 hours. Drain off/lauter via false bottom/gravity and electric pump to plate chiller.

7) Pitch yeast.


This process is fairly easy and has been producing a fine wash... BUT none of my tweaks get the gravity up (Tested with a refractometer, confirmed via hydrometer).

I don't mind increasing a step an hour or two but don't think I want to go overnight mash unless the starch liberation and conversion increase was profound.

I'm afraid that further milling from cracked will limit lauter ability and I'm very much not ok with that. The quick draining, batch style via false bottom is really nice. Going back to squeezing grains in a mop wringer is off the table for this.

I think I've got my enzyme conditions good and usually over dose a little bit. No pH readings were taken through.

Corn is so stupid cheap I've thought about upping the grist but it's already at 2lbs/gallon. Don't know if it would be worth my time to add more or if it would just mean more sweet wort sucked up by the grain matrix.

Guess I could bump it with sugar or even DME but I'm just resistant. I'd like a unique product.

I don't need the theoretical limits, just in practical experience, what are people using cracked corn getting? Am I being greedy? I'd be happy with 1.065

In my opinion, that TSC corn ain't worth a crap. I had starch extraction issues with it too. You're going to have to cook the snot out of it and (if you don't already have it) use a mash stirrer/agitator to keep things from scorching. Bumping up to 3lb/gal won't hurt either.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=53043

[butterpants]

Good read, thanks for that. Luckily there's 3 feed stores within a few minutes of my house. I'll have to experiment with brands..... glad I'm not the one all jacked up.

[jonnys_spirit]

Hi. I’m no expert but have made some whiskey so far.

With corn I got a couple 50lbs bags at the co-op. Yeah $6 each. I like that. Have been using it in recipes so far but I’ll do an all corn sometime. I run it through the corona 2-3 times so it ends up pretty fine. I don’t mash in the cooler mash tun with corn anymore. I just put it in fhe brute can with boiling water, wrap w/packing blankets and stir. Adding enzymes and malts at the temps for those. The fine grind has worked well for good saccrification. I ferment on-grain and have been saueezing in mop bucket to clear. Been happy with hitting 1065 1070 as expected. I have not had to reheat once adding boiling water. It takes a while to cool and I’ e had an infection or two but nothing that lost the run.

Good luck!
-johann

[raketemensch]

What some of us have been doing is leaving a few gallons of water out of the cooking phase and freezing 3-5 gallons of either water or backset, then dropping it in to cool the wort before pitching. Beats pumping water through a wort cooler any day.

[Cu29er]

.

2.6, 2.8, or 3.0 lbs cracked corn per gallon of water.

The finer the grind the higher the performance. You can test this by opening a new bag and a window screen to sift out the fines from the coarse until you get an amount of fines to do a run (you'll have a lot more coarse left). The fines will want to scorch.

Heat that water corn back up to 190-200F before taking it off the fire. That 185F and below is a problem. Longer you can soak all insulated up the better.

Don't assume the enzymes are high temp until you know for sure. Try 165F to start.

.

[still_stirrin]

...I seem to be stuck at 1.040 original gravity....BUT none of my tweaks get the gravity up...don’t want to go overnight...the grist (is) already at 2lbs/gallon....worth my time to add more...I'd be happy with 1.065.

Well, let’s see....do you add any malt to the corn, or is it only corn with enzymes? Two pounds per gallon of corn (only) is a little light for a mash. Try increasing the grainbill to 2-1/2 to 3 lb./ gallon.

You don’t mill the TSC cracked corn....you must. The cracked corn is good for horse feed (and a lot of that ends up in the manure), but it isn’t fine enough for the enzymes to reduce....unless you give it enough time. And that means, it definitely will require an overnight mash, which you don’t want to do.

So, summarizing, if you want to improve your extract:
1) grind the corn to “corn meal” consistency (this will make it harder to lauter, but improve extraction),
2) increase the lb./gallon ratio (and add some malted barley, wheat, oats, or rye to balance flavors),
3) raise and hold the gelatinization temperature to 190*F for at least an hour, stirring continuously,
4) increase mash times as necessary until the iodine test proves the starches are all converted, and
5) recirculate the runoff for 30 to 45 minutes to help clear the wort during lautering.

Bottomline, you should adjust both your recipe and your processes if you want improvement.
Otherwise, it’s insanity: doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results.
ss

edited to add: My long-winded answer seems redundant, but Cu29er snuck his reply in while I was typing mine. So, you see we’re both suggesting the same thing here.

[ShineRunner]

I had slightly better luck with Big R corn, but they changed brands and I wasn’t so happy with it. The TSC corn is crap too. No matter what, you’ve got to either cook it much longer or grind it smaller. I use cornmeal now and it’s so much easier, even if more expensive. Understand you want to lauter it, so I guess you’ve got some deciding to do..

Also, you mentioned that you don’t take ph readings. I noticed that they’re pretty important for the enzymes to work optimally. You may get lucky with your ph readings, but the test strips are cheap and easy to get yourself at least a little closer.

SR

[Samyguy]

TSC cracked corn has preservatives in it. Go find a farmer, pay him $5 for a bucket of corn. Should be about 30#.
Get a Corona mill ($25) run it through 2 or 3 times.
3# to a gal.
I do the enzymes just like you described, but I cook, ferment and distill on the grain all in the same vessel.
Works great

[still_stirrin]

TSC cracked corn has preservatives in it...

That’s B.S. It has been used to make many, many gallons of spirits. And if you leave a bag setting around in your garage, the mice will devour it.

But, the TSC corn is very, very dehydrated. It is very much below the 11% moisture typical to freshly harvested field corn. Because it is so dry, the grains must be properly ground and rehydrated in order for the gelatinization to work (which is needed to convert the proteins to carbs and finally starches for saccharification).

[butterpants]

I do have a mill and pH meter... just being lazy because if possible I like the path of least resistance.

I'm going to try:

Increasing grist ratio to 3lbs/gal and holding 190 for an hour before adding enzymes.

Then

1x pass through mill



That'll take 2 weeks. Will report back findings. Thanks guys for the advice! More drastic measures will come if nothing changes.

[ShineRunner]

SS,
If moisture content is part of the problem, would an overnight room temperature (or hot tap water) pre-soak help at all? I feel like I’ve seen it done on here but not sure that it really benefitted anything? I just went to cornmeal and steam stripping and never looked back!

SR

Edit: just did a quick search and found that people do it, but no real experiments to show if it actually helps that much. Perhaps it’s time for you to do a controlled experiment, butterpants?

[butterpants]

...I seem to be stuck at 1.040 original gravity....BUT none of my tweaks get the gravity up...don’t want to go overnight...the grist (is) already at 2lbs/gallon....worth my time to add more...I'd be happy with 1.065.

Well, let’s see....do you add any malt to the corn, or is it only corn with enzymes? Two pounds per gallon of corn (only) is a little light for a mash. Try increasing the grainbill to 2-1/2 to 3 lb./ gallon.

You don’t mill the TSC cracked corn....you must. The cracked corn is good for horse feed (and a lot of that ends up in the manure), but it isn’t fine enough for the enzymes to reduce....unless you give it enough time. And that means, it definitely will require an overnight mash, which you don’t want to do.

So, summarizing, if you want to improve your extract:
1) grind the corn to “corn meal” consistency (this will make it harder to lauter, but improve extraction),
2) increase the lb./gallon ratio (and add some malted barley, wheat, oats, or rye to balance flavors),
3) raise and hold the gelatinization temperature to 190*F for at least an hour, stirring continuously,
4) increase mash times as necessary until the iodine test proves the starches are all converted, and
5) recirculate the runoff for 30 to 45 minutes to help clear the wort during lautering.

Bottomline, you should adjust both your recipe and your processes if you want improvement.
Otherwise, it’s insanity: doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results.
ss

edited to add: My long-winded answer seems redundant, but Cu29er snuck his reply in while I was typing mine. So, you see we’re both suggesting the same thing here.

I do make another 3 grain bourbon mashbill style product that's 70/20/10 but this 100% corn is a side experiment since I do enjoy the corn flavor in my spirits and don't need diastatic power. Just having fun

[butterpants]

SS,
If moisture content is part of the problem, would an overnight room temperature (or hot tap water) pre-soak help at all? I feel like I’ve seen it done on here but not sure that it really benefitted anything? I just went to cornmeal and steam stripping and never looked back!

SR

That is certainly an interesting idea I did not consider...

[butterpants]

What some of us have been doing is leaving a few gallons of water out of the cooking phase and freezing 3-5 gallons of either water or backset, then dropping it in to cool the wort before pitching. Beats pumping water through a wort cooler any day.

Plate chiller cools 10 gallons from 140 to 70 in about 3 minutes. It's probably the most useful and time saving tool in my brew house. I prefer its company to human children.

At the moment I don't have any interest fermenting on grain...but that could always change.

[jonnys_spirit]

I’ve heard of folks doing an overnight pre-soak in hot backset before adding boiling water to gelatinize. The lower pH backset will certainly help and then adding water and shells will raise ph back up for conversion.

Cheers!
Johann

[BayouShine]

Increasing grist ratio to 3lbs/gal and holding 190 for an hour before adding enzymes.

A small suggestion. When this batch starts to gel up and get thick, hit it with a 1/2 dose of enzyme. Save the other half for when you're below 175*. It'll thin it out a lot and make things a lot easier to work with.

I would also go longer than an hour, 2 minimum.

[butterpants]

Increasing grist ratio to 3lbs/gal and holding 190 for an hour before adding enzymes.

A small suggestion. When this batch starts to gel up and get thick, hit it with a 1/2 dose of enzyme. Save the other half for when you're below 175*. It'll thin it out a lot and make things a lot easier to work with.

I would also go longer than an hour, 2 minimum.

Copy that. I have no shortage of enzymes so don't mind chuckin it around. It does work amazingly well.... corn is always loose and stirrable.

[butterpants]

I’ve heard of folks doing an overnight pre-soak in hot backset before adding boiling water to gelatinize. The lower pH backset will certainly help and then adding water and shells will raise ph back up for conversion.

Cheers!
Johann

HTL/starch liquification wants a pH of 6-7

GL/sacchrification wants a pH of 4-5

This sound about right? A soak in backset would be great for keeping enteric bacteria from growing but would make initial pH adjustments more difficult I think.

[rgreen2002]

First have a look here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Great info on starch conversion

Second: I agree that you have to pulverize the cracked corn... think meal. This allows the dehydrated corn to be fully penetrated with water and enzymes for conversion

I bought these for my corona mill:

Mill stones

corona_stones.jpg (18.87 KiB) Viewed 6865 times

viewtopic.php?p=7453247#p7453247

They DESTROY corn......!

[Bushman]

Looks nice rgreen you should make a video and post how it works.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I guess some of it will come down to your goals.

If you want absolute maximum yield from every starch nugget in corn then pulverizing and continuous mixing during mash may be required. If you want good conversion and still keep larger chunks to work with your mash tun then you may need to explore other options, possibly simply including more corn per gallon.

I believe there was a lengthy debate/discussion/argument at some point in the Booners Casual recipe thread.
I don’t remember the specifics, just pointing you in a direction that might provide more enlightenment.

[rgreen2002]

Looks nice rgreen you should make a video and post how it works.

I thought I had one lying around Bushman... no dice!

I will have to take some video this summer when I get to the grain crushing!

[butterpants]

I guess some of it will come down to your goals.

If you want absolute maximum yield from every starch nugget in corn then pulverizing and continuous mixing during mash may be required. If you want good conversion and still keep larger chunks to work with your mash tun then you may need to explore other options, possibly simply including more corn per gallon.

I believe there was a lengthy debate/discussion/argument at some point in the Booners Casual recipe thread.
I don’t remember the specifics, just pointing you in a direction that might provide more enlightenment.

I think you're on point. Corn is cheap and I'm not after max conversion.... just a baseline on the possibilities. I'll take convience over utility in this instance.... but I'm also an incessant tinker and need to experiment more. Find that pragmatic, happy medium.

You guys have definitely filled in some. knowledge gaps for me and reaffirmed a bunch I already knew. I'm grateful for that.

[raketemensch]

It's also worth checking around your area to see if you can buy corn meal or flour from local farms. I recently found a "fine corn meal" for 1/2 the price of the cheap TSC cracked corn at a local farm, and I am not in a very "farm-friendly" state.

[Antler24]

What some of us have been doing is leaving a few gallons of water out of the cooking phase and freezing 3-5 gallons of either water or backset, then dropping it in to cool the wort before pitching. Beats pumping water through a wort cooler any day.

I plan to do this with my first mashes, which will be in a month or so. I've got 3 gallons of backset frozen. Plan to steam heat and cook the corn, then add the frozen backset to get down to temps for the malt. Then after conversion is done I'll pull couple quarts for a yeast starter and let temps come down overnight, pitch next morning.

[raketemensch]

Well, I think that you want to keep the corn hot, and wrapped, until it gets down to the temp for the malt.

I use the ice after the malt (or enzyme) phase (which is 3 hours for me) to get it down to pitching temperature.

[Antler24]

Well, I think that you want to keep the corn hot, and wrapped, until it gets down to the temp for the malt.

I use the ice after the malt (or enzyme) phase (which is 3 hours for me) to get it down to pitching temperature.

Hmm you may be right, I'll have to do some more readin. I was planning to cook the corn for 2hrs as per Jimbo's or truckinbutch's recommendation, can't remember which.

[raketemensch]

Jimbo’s threads are great for learning AG, as are the Booner’s Casual All Corn and the Easy Large Batch Mashing threads. I’ve read through them many, many times before starting. It’s definitely worth checking out liquid enzymes as well.

[Antler24]

Jimbo’s threads are great for learning AG, as are the Booner’s Casual All Corn and the Easy Large Batch Mashing threads. I’ve read through them many, many times before starting. It’s definitely worth checking out liquid enzymes as well.

Really no reason for it but enzymes don't have any appeal to me. I plan on doing bourbon mash bills mostly, with the odd rye, so id be using malt anyone. Also distillers malt is same price as 2 and 6 row here, so plenty of DP.