Equilibrium?

[DAD300]

You didn't ask a simple question as you said.

And there still is no agreement as to what equilibrium means to makers of alcoholic beverages.

A. because the glossary is out of date and/or it doesn't belong there
B. because Equilibrium doesn't really apply to our equipment.

Equilibrium would be trying to stack fractions in a column. It would have to be a closed system, temperature and pressure regulated with mechanisms to draw off individual components and segregate them, to achieve equilibrium.

When we reflux, we constantly agitate the component vapors, up and down, up and down...purifying them, but not really achieving equilibrium.

[Ayay]

Equilibrium is seen as a two-way balance point such as a beam balance with equal weights on either side. Stills have a certain amount of self-balancing built in because they have three or more variables. Two of them will deliver the third, and the third will affect the first or second. Thus equilibrium can be stated as 'remaining in a constant state' ....until one of the variables is changed which delivers a new equilibrium, which makes equilibrium is a variable thing.

Gotta find the right equilibrium, and flow with it while one or more of the factors are changing.

[FruitiePie]

ok, ok, ok....
as someone who is both a noob to the forum and is ok with being considered such with regards to the practice of the craft, I have just finished reading this entire thread and feel pummeled. By this I mean that my technical research, my mental imaging instinct and my reflections on my practice and results are getting a thorough workout trying to balance the presented points. Understanding how the fractions come off has allowed me to run a POT much better(I know, how hard could that be??) But the point I guess I am trying to get to is that we get to enjoy one of the most fruitful hobbies ever invented. I am researching to improve my craft but have started to question my motivation... Do I want to be able to pull azeo? Do I want to match flavours with favorite commercial product? Do I just want cheap booze? I suppose the word want could also be replace with need... I did want to build a version of a Boka, but have decided I am going to stick with my pot, improving it one step at a time, (larger boiler, better worm, better heat control, etc.,) and then get fancy playing with recipes and methods. I really cant lose no matter what I do in this hobby, which I guess is a part of why I love it so much. My 2 cents: you get reflux of the foreshots even if you don't want reflux because the packing material has to be brought up to temp no matter what it is.

[DAD300]

First good on ya for reading all this.

Making azeo is a technical goal and shows your equipment is capable and you are knowledgeable. Very few to no one wants to drink azeo! But being able to, makes for great vodka, base for maceration's, and learning to control the process.

I no longer want to match commercial products. I think what I make is better! I know it is technically better/healtier (no foreshots or heads). Although I can copy Southern Comfort pretty damn well.

And yes it is less expensive than buying even cheap booze.

Reflux and fractionating allows you to get rid of the bad stuff quicker, collect more hearts and get more of the good stuff.

After that...the ferment is where the flavors are. Work your ferments for all you can.

[googe]

It's gunna be cheap, that's the nature of doing it yourself, and better than store bought is the bonus. Pots are great stills, they can do most things, as most stills can. Azeo is an ego stroke in my eyes, like who's got the bigger house. Getting ABV up and doing nice clean washes is what I like the most, flavor and cleanliness.

[jackfiasco]

We (by refluxing) disrupt Raoutl's Law by condensing (creating a liquid heavier than vapor) the nastys and sending them back down the column to mix with the vapor components coming up the column. Constantly changing the vapor/liquid mixture and disrupting the closed environment.

Not sure how I stumbled upon this nearly year old thread but I found it very interesting. What DAD said seemed to make perfect sense to me. Especially as I was just commenting in Odin's thread regarding not cutting heads that I don't seem to get product out til I hit around 163F. But lately I have been running all batches in reflux so it makes sense to me that the fores and heads are mixing with everything else and then coming off together at 163F instead of coming out at lower temps. My next run I will leave reflux off and run it slow to start, see if I can pull off fores and heads at the lower temp they should be at, and then start reflux. I'm no expert and see the points made on both sides of this debate, so hopefully I will learn with experience what works better (for me and my equipment, at least).

[DAD300]

Don't get fixated on any particular temp. With an even boil and a decent column, what reaches the top first is the MAJORITY of all the evil fores. Bleeding some of the fores and heads off, before 100% reflux makes perfect sense to me, but not everyone.

Remember, at the hobby level, we don't have true fractionating columns, Temp and Pressure controls that allow the segregation of fractions. In full reflux we are remixing...to get more distillations in the column.

[Maritimer]

DAD, the removal of fores at the start of a reflux run is definitely segregating a fraction. And segregating the ethanol from the water is another separation of fractions.

Bleeding the fores means that reflux is less than 100%. If you are removing part of the vapour, you are necessarily running at less than 100% reflux.

M

[Bushman]

I find no problem with bleeding off fores before you go into 100% reflux and coming to equalibrium as your still taking the heads off slowly and not using them in your finished product anyway. I've done both.

[DAD300]

DAD, the removal of fores at the start of a reflux run is definitely segregating a fraction. And segregating the ethanol from the water is another separation of fractions.

Bleeding the fores means that reflux is less than 100%. If you are removing part of the vapour, you are necessarily running at less than 100% reflux.

M

When I say we're not segregating a fraction, I mean like a lab or a petroleum fractionating column would. We're segregating a majority fores mixed with ethanol and other high alcohols. So, my contention is, I don't want to wait an hour, mixing those other alcohols in a still that can't really achieve equilibrium.

We know our fores, heads and tails are a mix with good ethanol or we couldn't rerun them and collect good ethanol.

What we do, in hobby stills, is remove the mixtures of vapor, in the order naturally vaporize (fores first, heads second,...), as a majority (no matter how slow we heat there is always a mixture of higher alcohols and ethanol) , in a progressive distillation. God I hope that makes sense! Further, if we have reflux running from the start, we actually frustrate (we take that fores vapor mixture and condense it, send it back down the column to mix with richer ethanol) best proper separation.

If we can agree that the majority of the fores (trash alcohols we don't want) come off first and at lower heat, we would be best served to get them out of the still before we start reflux. But in most stills you can't do this, because of the safety vent associated with not pressurizing the still. If you didn't reflux from the start in an LM or VM, I would be venting fores vapor out the top.

So best we can do min reflux with an LM is maybe 4:1 and on a VM minimum reflux of 1:1 while collecting fores and early heads. Then go to 100% reflux to raise the ABV of the remaining charge.

[Anyhowe]

Heck I am not proud, I will dig up a 4 year old thread...to the Noob, old is Noo.

The idea of gas separation due to molecular weight and the idea that disturbance might get in the way of that process got me thinking. Hmmm, Co2 is heavier than O2. Therefore we should all be dead with all the co2 at the surface. But instead the disturbances of life keep it mixed nicely regardless of the weight and we all continue to breath, type and distill.

Thanks for ALL of the thoughts, science and opinions.

[Big Stogie]

Glad you dragged it up I found it a great read

[rolling]

This is a great thread! I'm new and have made a 2" Boka & a 2"pot head w/leibig for my keg boiler. I'll be starting a corn/rye mash this weekend and and hopefully can see what happens next weekend. I'll use the Boka.

[rolling]

As I planned, I did a run with my boka thinking about what I've learned from this thread. I have good heat control, so I opened my take off valve wide and used heat control to regulate the take off rate. Once it settled in I didn't need to fuss with the control much at all. I figure I took off vapors as they condensed and fell onto the plates, which makes my Boka an entirely different beast. It was a corn/rye/barley mash with dady yeast. I'll let it sit a couple of days and hopefully get some evaluation in later in the week. If anyone thinks I'm barking up the wrong tree, let me know.

[PapaSquatch]

I have been lurking here for months before joining, and am gathering the parts to build a reflux still of some kind. Until I found this thread, I was very confused about how a reflux column actually works. I am more certain than ever that the knowledge here will shorten my learning curve considerably once I am in operation.

Thanks to all who added to the discussion

[OtisT]

I have been lurking here for months before joining, and am gathering the parts to build a reflux still of some kind. Until I found this thread, I was very confused about how a reflux column actually works. I am more certain than ever that the knowledge here will shorten my learning curve considerably once I am in operation.

Thanks to all who added to the discussion

If you want a bit more info on this subject that is simple to digest and concise, there is a book called “the complete distiller” that does a good job explaining the science behind still components and various still types at a basic level. It’s a quick read with pictures and graphs and really helped me at first with an understand how each still type separates. It does not teach you how to operate a fractioning column like this thread does, but it does explain the science a bit and how the various still parts do what they do.

I wish you luck in the cuts to come. Otis

[ng71xy]

So just read all 4 pages of this thread...it is one of the most informative threads I’ve read on here, it completely explains the theory of reflux, and it doesn’t matter what type of reflux set up your runningwhich makes it sooooo much easier to understand when starting out!!!

this should be some sort of compulsory reading, if it’s not already.

So I’m gonna give it a bit of a bump and dig it out for any other people starting out with a reflux to have a bit of a read

[Rrmuf]

+1 Excellent read! I dont think Ive seen anything in newbie must reads.