element controller

[stillvodka]

Hello all

i have purchased similar controlers in the past, but i am stuck with this one

How does this wire/connect up to my element with my boiler, there is no power in, just two wires
https://www.sutronics.com/ProductDetail ... =PC240-20P" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[shadylane]

A light switch also has only 2 wires
Wire it in the circuit like a light switch
Don't forget the ground wires
And that controller will need a heatsink

[StillerBoy]

A light switch also has only 2 wires

A light switch only have 1 wire.. the switch has 2 connection/pole and serves as a breaker only, on or off..

Your controller is very similar to a dimer switch.. one wire is live, the other wire serves as a breaker.. so you'ill have to check how it's wired inside the box..

Mars

[Oldvine Zin]

A light switch only have 1 wire.. the switch has 2 connection/pole and serves as a breaker only, on or off..

Your controller is very similar to a dimer switch.. one wire is live, the other wire serves as a breaker.. so you'ill have to check how it's wired inside the box..

Mars

???

OVZ

[Yummyrum]

Stillvodka
There was another pic on your link that shows how to connect it .

Note also the heatsinking rquirements . Might be best to mount it in a box on a heatsink and loop your cables in and out of the box .

[stillvodka]

Stillvodka
There was another pic on your link that shows how to connect it .

FDB1D07C-84FF-47B3-B47E-F881DAF165B0.jpeg

Note also the heatsinking rquirements . Might be best to mount it in a box on a heatsink and loop your cables in and out of the box .

Ok right, what did make me maybe over cautious was the unit just having the two wire and no connection block and same colour wires dangling out of it

[Yummyrum]

Good on you for questioning it .

Yeah at first glance it looks like a stand alone controller but it really is just a part that needs to be in a box with the other connectors etc that you were worried about .

[stillvodka]

Good on you for questioning it .

Yeah at first glance it looks like a stand alone controller but it really is just a part that needs to be in a box with the other connectors etc that you were worried about .

ok, i have been looking really hard at this controller, but i just can't see how this thing sits in between my mains power box on my shed wall, and my boiler element, without the need of some sort of switching Box?
Do anybody know how to connect this thing up? can they discribe other components that I need, maybe they could draw a diagram for me,
would you believe I can wire up an house extension. but a little component like this can have me stumped!
.

[Tony1964]

Hi Stillvodka

I’ve pulled a circuit diagram of what the internals of that box would more than likely look like, as well as the description of how Triac phase firing works.

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/power/diac.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Hope this sheds some light on it for you, ignore the triac part code that’s only a 6a triac, the triac in the one you have will be a higher current capacity.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Hi Stillvodka again

By the link you provided the power controller is priced in £ so I assume your an electrician in the U.K.

So, if you look at the diagram Yummyrum posted you see your heating element is in series with the controller, so, it appears that there is no neutral on the right side of where they draw the “heater” worded box, if I drew a switch connected from the right hand side of the “heater” worded box, you could see how that would work yes? Do not do this, all I’m doing is explaining what is happening.

The Triac in the controller box is the switch it’s switching the other side of the heating element to neutral, you get me, the phase angle part is really a control that changes when the triac switches therefore changes the RMS value of the power to the heating element.

So, live to one side of the element, and The neutral, as you would think it goes to the control box, and the other wire to the control box is a proper neutral. And of cause an appropriate earth to its chassis.

Does that make more sense?

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Just for completeness, I’ve looked at where this could seem confusing, your expecting to see a couple of connections that provide power to the circuit itself as in the controller box?

The power for the controller box triac. Switch comes when the triac is itself “off” you in essence have the heater element at live potential both sides of the element, as a light bulb would read 240v both sides until the switch is thrown.

When the “neutral” side of the element is in fact “live” as in 240v this provides the power to charge the capacitor that eventually provides the power to trigger the triac switch, which then makes the “neutral” connection.

When the AC goes through zero voltage as AC does, the triac naturally turns off, so, switches the “neutral” off on the element, this allows again the power to be used to charge the capacitor and fire the triac.

The variable control knob changes the amount of current applied to the capacitor, therefore how much time it takes to fire the triac, and there you have it, variable power.

Hope that makes more sense too

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

So

To switch it off as in to remove power totally, you would have a double pole double throw switch, the live side removing the main live from the element, this would do on its own, but for safety, the neutral side being removed from the controller.

Obviously, with a suitable fused circuit, and, you don’t need me to tell you, make sure your earthed on the boiler as well my friend.

RCD if some description as an add on, again you already know this, more for anyone reading the thread.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Stillvodka

I’ve replied to your PM

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Stillvodka

Tried to add a picture via the reply on the pm, but alas not

Sorry for the paper and pencil approach but on holiday at the min.

You have not said the power size of the element, you also need to provide suitable heatsink and cooling for the power controller.

Also this is potentially over 20amps, so, as per my PM a separate din rail supply in your consumer unit is a must.

Also, and again your an electrician but, if it is getting on for a 5Kw element, I would suggest this is on the limit of being under powered.

I don’t have to advise you on the proper rating of cable for this unit, perhaps even fitting an emergency power off

Cheers

Tony

[stillvodka]

Stillvodka

Tried to add a picture via the reply on the pm, but alas not happening. Try it here.

F4216098-0FBB-4DE6-9569-F6449E17840E.jpeg

Sorry for the paper and pencil approach but on holiday at the min.

You have not said the power size of the element, you also need to provide suitable heatsink and cooling for the power controller.

Also this is potentially over 20amps, so, as per my PM a separate din rail supply in your consumer unit is a must.

Also, and again your an electrician but, if it is getting on for a 5Kw element, I would suggest this is on the limit of being under powered.

I don’t have to advise you on the proper rating of cable for this unit, perhaps even fitting an emergency power off

Cheers

Tony

Brilliant, thanks.
Wow! honestly, I cannot believe I couldnt see that,
So all it was, was a matter of Splitting the Live between the two Points on the heating element,with the Live on the power controller, Normal neutral run from consumer unit to the Power controller, and standard earth run

I think, what was making me concerned , is i didnt want to believe that you could directly sent that much electrical power through a relitivley small component,

ok, regarding power supply, 45amp cooker cable running to from my shed wall electrical box to a seperate 32amp breaker on the cooker side of the consumer unit, should handle without a problem

[Tony1964]

Stillvodka

Obviously your going to have to sort out the thermal issues with the unit, that’s going to get very hot,

You’ve not said what power the actual element is

Cheers

Tony

[stillvodka]

Hello tony
4.5 killowatt element

[Tony1964]

Stillvodka

That’s right on the limit of the power controller mate, your build but if it were me I’d be using an 8kw or above power controller, the max RMS on state is listed at 20 amps for that controller.

Your right on the limit of running that at max power,

Is it one 4.5kw element or like mine is actually 2 x 2kw elements in parallel? If so, perhaps consider splitting the elements and controlling them seperaitly

Just a thought, you really should have 20% head room if not 50% my friend

Cheers

Tony

[stillvodka]

Stillvodka

That’s right on the limit of the power controller mate, your build but if it were me I’d be using an 8kw or above power controller, the max RMS on state is listed at 20 amps for that controller.

Your right on the limit of running that at max power,

Is it one 4.5kw element or like mine is actually 2 x 2kw elements in parallel? If so, perhaps consider splitting the elements and controlling them seperaitly

Just a thought, you really should have 20% head room if not 50% my friend

Cheers

Tony

I wont be using it at full power, the power will be needed just for getting the boiler up to tempeture and then I wont be having it on total full power , it will be turned down to less than half just to keep a nice light rolling boil.

[Tony1964]

It’s your party pal,

If I may finish with some advice, if your going to do this, my up to temp time is about an hour on 30 litres, you will be running that triac, thyristor or quadrac, or indeed what ever they have used at full power for what ever time, the surface of the device is probably going to be hitting well over 100 degrees c, please make sure you adequately attach a cooling device with a appropriate thermal paste, even then I would not consider this safe.

Personally, I attach thermal temp probes to the heatsinks of the triacs on my power controller, part of the monitoring, with a fan on each and each controller is rated at twice the max power I pull from them.

On heat up to boiler temperature they hit some 41 degrees c and down to 34 degrees c when the run starts and the power is reduced.

A massive increase in temperature on the heatsink is going to at least be a warning that the fire crackers are about to start.

Again I would not recommend running A 5Kw power controller with a 4.5kw element, at full power, but, you never asked for a recommendation, just how to wire it up. The above is for the safety again of anyone thinking of doing the same with respect.


Cheers

Tony