Buying Supplies

[GCB3]

Oh man, these are great stories and I wish I had found your thread, Fruit Squeezer, in my search. You are obviously much quicker witted than me! I agree that most of the clerks are just being friendly or teasing. Guess I have “Guilty” printed on my forehead in flop sweat! These responses have a common thread, relax! Next time someone asks I may just turn it around on them and ask, “Well, whut cha sellin it for, darlin?”

Now I need to head to the shed and make some gummy bears!
Thanks folks

[Bushman]

I have to agree Fruit Squeezer that is a classic response.

[Sunshineer]

I tell them I'm going to cook up a batch of LSD and leave them with a dumb look on their face

[iwine]

But in Canada we don't have to worry about it fines are like $50 or $200 and they will likely only take your equipment away for a first offense.On The Hobbit level that is.
If you're nervous about it just telling you making Pancake syrup or candied apples or peanut brittle . For a church bake sale.
Something that you have to remember is restaurants or bakeries it's nothing for them to order a couple hundred pounds of sugar.
I have been asked more often when I'm buying copper bits If I was building a still.Then I said I wish! Then Just laughed and said that is illegal.

[decoy]

As others have said, most store persons etc don't give two hoots about what you do, their just cutting time.
Its not uncommon for me to buy stuff in bulk, I dont consider my self a prepper, but I like to be self sufficient and have a bit of extra stock of food and supplies I rotate as it gets older, and it saves a considerable amount of money.
Police generally dont care about small home Distilling for personal use, unless someone makes a complaint or you are found to be supplying to public where the problem will be with commercial distilleries or the Tax man.

Some legitimate reason ideas you can use; Candy, Jam, bread/cake/biscuit baking, catering etc.

[still_stirrin]

I tell them I'm going to cook up a batch of LSD and leave them with a dumb look on their face

Well, at least you’re not going to the CO-OP and buying fertilizer and diesel fuel, claiming you’re making “fireworks”. It’ll get you plenty of attention!
ss

[Sunshineer]

I buy a lot of the things that we use at a bakery supply store very cheap compared to the brew supply stores

[Windswept]

I buy a lot of the things that we use at a bakery supply store very cheap compared to the brew supply stores

That's what I've been finding too. I can get a 50# bag of malt barley for 65$ from the HBS or 35$ from the grain supplier. Talk about a crazy markup!

[Sunshineer]

I buy corn sugar for 24.95 a bag most brew shops want at least 60.00 plus and I have seen it as high as 128.00 on ebay that's just crazy. And I can buy 50 pds of corn meal cheaper then cracked corn from tractor supply.

[brantoken]

I just tell them that I found out in prison for assault that baking cookies calms me down. So I bake lots of cookies....

[zapata]

I buy a lot of the things that we use at a bakery supply store very cheap compared to the brew supply stores

That's what I've been finding too. I can get a 50# bag of malt barley for 65$ from the HBS or 35$ from the grain supplier. Talk about a crazy markup!

You can get malted barley from a bakery supplier? Got any links? A quick googling didn't pay off.

[Twisted Brick]

You can get malted barley from a bakery supplier? Got any links? A quick googling didn't pay off.

I googled bakery supply outfits in the area and all I got was cake decorators. I'm huntin' for a ground corn supplier other than Bob's Red Mill @ $30 for 50lbs.

[Sunshineer]

Just paid 20.00 for 50lb bag of corn meal at Molina bakery supply I did the google search for local dextrose when I found Molina dextrose was 29.34 for a 50lb bag and both wheat and oats were very cheap also. I never use feed grain if I'm going to do all the work it takes to distill a great product then I only use the best ingredients that I can get. Had a friend plant 10 acres in bloody butcher corn for me that is chest high right now if it comes in as planned I shouldn't have to buy corn for a while.

[CuWhistle]

All this reminds me of the time I was trying to source fertilizer to make up 2 part nutrient mix for a hydroponics setup to grow vegies. One garden place I went to thought I was a terrorist for asking to purchase bulk chemicals. I gave them all my particulars to alleviate their concerns but in the end they just said it was too hard and I eventually found supplies at various farmers produce stores. Some of the specific items were tricky to find but on their own were not an issue and never should be to legitimate buyers. I wasn't growing hooch or making bombs, but I did have a beard and it was less than 2 years after 911. You can buy 2 part nutrient but I knew how to make it a lot cheaper and was hit with problems all the way.

Even yesterday I was in the hardware asking which fertilizer was closest to DAP and the guy asked me why I wanted it. I told him I needed to green up the grass but I didn't want any Potassium near my citrus trees.
He couldn't help me so I'll have to go buy a 20 kg bag at the produce store. I do have have some super phosphate if anybody knows if it will work as a nutrient in place of DAP.

[EscobarDriver]

If buying a still puts you on the fed's list, what happens if you buy a whiskey kit?

The site Barley and Hops Brewing has on offer several full up kits for making whiskey along with 2 well done videos that step you through the brewing and distilling process. I currently brew small (2.5 gallon) batches of beer using kits so this idea appeals to me but I'm concerned that there's not much plausible deniability if you get a kit designed to make whiskey.

Good idea, bad idea, meh idea?

Side question, I realize it's legal to sell stills but full up kits? And videos detailing how to use them? Seems to me like that would put B&HB on somebody's watch list and a great target for a review of shipping lists. Am I missing something?

Thank you for any feedback. If I go into this, I want to do it eyes wide open.

Note: I did searches for 'kits' and didn't find anything. I've also checked out several of the forums and didn't find anything about this specific idea. If I missed it, please feel free to point me to the resource.

[kpex72]

If buying a still puts you on the fed's list, what happens if you buy a whiskey kit?

You aren't put on a list, per say. Suppliers have to keep 3 years of records of any sales of major components that can be used for distillation. If asked, they are required to turn them over. If you buy a Mashtun, or even a conical fermenter, for the sole purpose of making actual beer and only beer, your info is still turned over as it is a component that COULD be used. It is up to the Feds to determine who is questionable. But, boilers, columns, condensers, and most major components count and suppliers are supposed to balance what they bring in vs what they re-sell. Padding books/inventory/production, would get them in serious trouble. So expect any legitimate business to keep proper records to cover their ass, and don't trust them if they say they don't keep records - they do.

They do not track nutrients, yeast, small parts like alcoholmeters, etc. If you bought equipment more than 3 years ago and haven't gotten a letter, your good and not on "a list". I believe 2014 was the last time they made any enforcement on this.

The secret is just don't do stupid things, like selling, and you should be fine. You should be more worried about your State/Local laws than the federal ones.

[EscobarDriver]

If buying a still puts you on the fed's list, what happens if you buy a whiskey kit?

So expect any legitimate business to keep proper records to cover their ass, and don't trust them if they say they don't keep records - they do.

They do not track nutrients,.

The secret is just don't do stupid things, like selling, and you should be fine. You should be more worried about your State/Local laws than the federal ones.

I totally expect a legit business to have all the records they're required to have and good on them for that.

OK, so I'm not sure what 'nutrients' are but I'm guessing it's not corn, barley, and sugar or kits. Did I get that right?

I haven't looked into local/state regs yet so I'll head off to check that out.

I've worked in a regulated field all my life and am aware of the idea of enforcement discretion. The FDA would let entire classes of issues slide right up to the point where they wanted <some practice> to end then they got out a sledgehammer and nailed everyone on it for a couple of years. I'm guessing it's no different here. The thing that makes me nervous is that for any given infraction, past performance (fines, etc) is not a guarantee of future outcomes and the maximum allowed enforcements are pretty severe. I'm too old to spend time in the slammer...

I'm probably just in the hyper-paranoid zone because I haven't been exposed to any of this before.

Thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate the help.

[jog666]

I'm probably just in the hyper-paranoid zone because I haven't been exposed to any of this before.

You should had seen me one evening last year. Wasnt to long after I started, Coming to the end of a long day and slowly getting stuff put up. I dont remember now but it was atleast the 5th time a small engine plane had buzzed my area. Low enough a pistol could had hit the plane. After watching it make another pass I flipped a wig, a wig fluffy enough to draw a crazy check. I dont have a clue if it was the law or someone doing some training but it didnt settle right at the time. Between that & a few smaller things, my paranoia mellowed out. Dont tell, dont sell and dont do stuff in public view(front yard) you cant back up with "wine or beer making" as an excuse.

[DetroitDIY]

Only person that would probably ask that question is a distiller.

My thoughts exactly. If they're knowledgeable enough to guess what you're up to, they are already pretty familiar with it, and wouldn't give a rats ass.

[csandviche]

I know starting out I was all paranoid but after doing it for 15+ years I’m over it. Also a close friend is a local sheriff and he’s told me they ain’t got time for small fish, when they’re too busy looking for murderers, burglars, robbers, preventing domestic disputes, child abusers, etc. I buy sugar in bulk from Costco and my local feed store mixes my sweetfeed recipe for me. No one at Costco ever asks cause I’m normally doing regular grocery shopping. Pretty sure the feed store guy knows but doesn’t care and probably wouldn’t want to scare people off. Like everyone says, don’t talk about it and don’t sell it (don’t sell it part is the big part). Good luck and have fun!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zapata]

The site Barley and Hops Brewing ...

Is a joke. Get your info here, that guy learned just enough to talk a lot of nonsense to bring in the sucker customers from youtube. He has a half dozen videos on using PID's to control his still. Explains the shit out of it. Would have any beginner eating (buying) out of his hand. Then when he shows it being used he is literally "see that? when your still is going drip spurt drip drip SPURT, you know you got it dialed in the sweet spot". Never trust anybody who doesn't understand that a (cheaper and simpler) power controller beats the pants off a PID for powering a still.

That being said, yeah, they could probably pop him for conspiracy if they really really wanted to. I am unaware of ANY law enforcement along similar lines, ever. They just don't care about conspiracy to produce a quart of crappy booze. But if you want to be totally safe, don't order anything from anyplace doing any questionable business, and don't order anything that is ONLY used for distilling. Make or import your gear. Don't tell, don't sell, don't piss off your wife, don't piss off friends or family you couldn't follow rule #1 with. 90% of distilling busts are accidental. They ain't looking for you, but if they have to find you because somebody brings 'em, they'll do their job.

[EscobarDriver]

The site Barley and Hops Brewing ...

Is a joke. Get your info here, that guy learned just enough to talk a lot of nonsense to bring in the sucker customers from youtube. He has a half dozen videos on using PID's to control his still. Explains the shit out of it. Would have any beginner eating (buying) out of his hand. Then when he shows it being used he is literally "see that? when your still is going drip spurt drip drip SPURT, you know you got it dialed in the sweet spot". Never trust anybody who doesn't understand that a (cheaper and simpler) power controller beats the pants off a PID for powering a still.

That being said, yeah, they could probably pop him for conspiracy if they really really wanted to. I am unaware of ANY law enforcement along similar lines, ever. They just don't care about conspiracy to produce a quart of crappy booze. But if you want to be totally safe, don't order anything from anyplace doing any questionable business, and don't order anything that is ONLY used for distilling. Make or import your gear. Don't tell, don't sell, don't piss off your wife, don't piss off friends or family you couldn't follow rule #1 with. 90% of distilling busts are accidental. They ain't looking for you, but if they have to find you because somebody brings 'em, they'll do their job.

THANK you. Exactly what I was looking for. I appreciate your take on his vids because, to a noob, they look pretty good.

Now about this 'don't piss off your wife' thing...I'm over 4 decades in on wife #1 and I'm not exactly sure how you do that...forget brewing and distilling advice...you want to make a mint, figure out that one! (I keed, I keed).

[CuWhistle]

Watch the video on thumpers. Revolutionary stuff. Texta drawings on butchers paper is high tech stuff and we needed 2 of them. George's sypherin' is right up there with Jethro Bodine, plumb through to the 6th grade.

[jog666]

I stopped watching his videos after the second or third one. He said something along the lines of "Run it to 168* (top of a pot still riser) & hold it for 10-15 minutes to run off all the nasties". This was also after I was up and running (without gauges) & knew it was bullshit.

[rubelstrudel]

At the farmer supply store where I buy my molasses they normally don't talk much. But this last time the girl behind the counter smirked at me and said:
-"You going to use this for production or something? You don't have animals?"
Now, that is a bit of an awkward question in our hobby. But I had actually prepared for it, with advice from another thread here:
-"Nah, depends on what type of livestock we're discussing here." I said -"Yeast need food too."
Then she smiled knowingly and rang me off.


Another story from a pal at work. He dabbled in the arts in his younger days and was at a pblumber store to aquire some copper piping to weld together a traditional CM still had was very popular back then in the 70's. He was a bit anxious about the whole thing, the police were much more interested in these activities back then. So when the plumber/clerk started humming and looking at the parts list he started sweating and wondered if he should make a run for it and just forget the whole thing.
-I think I see what you're up to... The clerk said.
-Hang on a minute... and the clerk disappeared into the office in the back.
My buddy was ready to run now, very tense few seconds. But then the clerk comes back and hands my buddy a paper and says:
- This is a much better design. I'll gather the parts you need.
The papers showed a slant plate LM design with a packed column, And served my buddy well for a few years until he found other passions in life.

The slant plate LM design was developed at a local engineering college and was very popular among the few people who kept on distilling into the 80's and 90's.

[rubelstrudel]

Here's a pic of the LM design that was supplied as DIY sets by enterprising engineering students through the 70s.

NTH-LM - classic norwegian moonshine still

[kpex72]

OK, so I'm not sure what 'nutrients' are but I'm guessing it's not corn, barley, and sugar or kits. Did I get that right?

No, I was thinking about yeast nutrients, enzymes, clearing agents, and all other supplements in general. Also, no one is tracking actual grain sales etc., unless you did something stupid and didn't follow your comment below and know your local laws. At worst, some underpaid cashier will just make you feel uncomfortable. It happens. I don't know what "Kit" you are referring to, but if its like a beer kit with just ingredients (grain/sugar/malt/yeast, etc.) and no hardware, you should be GTG. It's the actual hardware they keep eyes out for. Remember that just about every ingredient for distilling is the same for beer making, too; regardless as to how they advertise it. (Even baking)

I haven't looked into local/state regs yet so I'll head off to check that out.

Please do. I always encourage people to know their local laws. If possessing any part of a still is illegal in your area, that's when you need to be extra cautious. I'd buy parts overseas and import them if that was the case, but I built mine to be safe. Many places it's only illegal to actually produce spirits, as you are allowed to distill water and or essential oils, etc. Plus some places allow the production of Fuel alcohol and you can get a legit permit. Then you have to balance urban vs rural living areas. If you live in a big city and are buying 200#'s of just barley, someone might make an anonymous call to the local PD. If in a rural area, buying corn, grains, etc. is way more common that you think.

I'm probably just in the hyper-paranoid zone because I haven't been exposed to any of this before.

We all were there at one time or another. I live in a big city, so buying bulk was tricky. I also always told friends that I had a connection for shine. That connection happened to be me, but only the closest of friends knew about what I did. It's been so long (20+ years I think), that I even tell them that I stopped making it; now that I have a family, etc. So my lips are even tighter. It's hard not to brag, but as the saying goes, don't tell and don't sell. My lips are so tight now, that I don't even tell my wife, she brings it up when the bathroom smells differently then when fermenting beer. She doesn't mind. And in all those years I never sold or traded any at all. Keep that karma good.

I have only once been questioned about a purchase, and it was fortunately in a sarcastic manner. I made the mistake of buying 100# of sugar at Costco, and only sugar. No problem at the register, but the guy checking receipts leaving made a snarky comment to the tune of "looks like someone is making moonshine". I gave a blank stare (mind you it was very busy) and just replied "Pretty sure you need corn for that" and took back my receipt and just pushed the cart away. Now I know to only buy 50#'s at a time and to always have an immediate comeback. Blame the wife for sponsoring a bake sale or you got stuck making sweet tea for the kids (insert sport) team practices for the month. Also, don't just buy ingredients, load the cart with toilet paper, some frozen foods, and a rotisserie chicken. No one will bat an eye.

As for grains, yeast, etc. I have been a long time beer maker, so my HBS knows me vaguely by my face. I'm not in a lot, but I pick up a 50# bag of malted barley along with some hops I need and Ale yeast (it works for both my beer and mash - double win for me), and just say It's my turn to get the bulk grains for a few brewing buddies, then change the topic or hand the credit card over. That's not an uncommon practice. I do this with several local brew stores, so I'm not in the same store buying a shit ton of Rye/Barley, etc. I pay by CC so it doesn't seem shady. Just know the lingo and be friendly. If you can order online and pick up in store, even better. Better yet, learn to make beer and you won't feel uncomfortable in a brew supply store. As for other supplies, that are unregulated, I buy online and ship straight to my door. Been doing it since the internet was invented.

Just have fun and be careful. Besides, if someone is smart enough to make the comment...……..well then, it takes one to know one if you get my drift.

Spend less time worrying and more time reading!

Best of luck and be safe!

[zapata]

Best approach in a brew store if you don't know about brewing is to talk a lot about every aspect of brewing, especially if you are making up aspects that aren't even about brewing. You'll fit right in with everyone else who doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Imagine how dumb the average idiot is..... half the people in my LHBS are dumber than he is!

Seriously, other than youtube, some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard was in a LHBS. And it's true what they say about the internet, people are way more polite in person. Nobody calls the random idiots out on they're BS in public, but they'd get a well deserved public shaming for spreading BS on a forum.

[Tyoung489]

I find this paranoia cautiously unwarranted. Feds are too busy to worry about 5 gallon batches, and the reasons the States normally give for allowing the making of home beer, & wine is that you can’t fuel a fire with beer & wine, but 40% to 95% distilled products love to burn. Don’t be foolishly lose lipped and don’t start a fire and you’re 99.99994% safe. Maybe having worked most of my life as a mechanic, or in construction, the thought of being worried about purchasing copper pipe/tube, copper fittings, SS tube, sanitary fittings, seems so odd. I routinely buy copper 1/4” to 3”, with the occasional 4”, and 6”. If they didn’t want you to buy 50, or 100 lbs bags of sugar they wouldn’t package it that way. Other than a few additives like bulk MSG, buying large quantities of food stuffs shouldn’t be of concern to anyone. Even the MSG only needs to be tracked if you’re a food producer. Buying 100 lbs of dextrose, tell them your wife and her baking friends each take 10 lbs, it’s cheaper to buy this way, or read a couple of bee keeping articles on the Internet, then you can say you keep bees and when you harvest the honey you have to provide the bees sugar water until they build up their honey stores, or that it’s for making rocket candy fuel for hobby rockets, or your space project, the SStS, Sugar Shot to Space. There’s no membership rosters to check, and if they Google it it’s a legit amateur rocket project. This is a group from California, Canada, and various places around the world working on sending cube-stat satellites into orbit using sugar based propellants. Though dextrose works, sorbitol make for a better rocket fuel. Here’s a link to a test firing of a sugar base rocket motor using 269 lbs of fuel, with approximately 40% being sugar.

[rubelstrudel]

Home distilling is illegal where I live. Even owning a still or parts of a still is illegal unless you have a license and are meticulous about your reporting to the gov. That has not deterred enterprising individuals like myself though, from dabbling in small scale home industry. If you do talk to people about it around here they're more likely to equate your operation to a arts and crafts endeavor than criminal activity. The police seems to only care about anyone producing for sale, and will only ever care about small home distillers if they cannot get away with "not noticing".

There are several indicators towards this:

1)every brew shop around here carries hydrometers that goes all the way up to 100%, not just the beer and wine type.
2)Almost every grocery carries "whiskey essence" and "brandy essence" and other types of essences that are supposed to be mixed with a bottle of 40% spirit bought in a liquor store. However, I sincerely doubt anyone believe that the core market for these products are people who buy neutral spirit in a liquor store.
3)We have wine and brew shops that carries a range of turbo yeasts that blatantly tells you how to make sugar shine. And all the other paraphernalia of the hobby.