1500w 120v slim boiler regrets?

[pope]

I've already got 5500w 240v full keg boiler but if I want to strip down a 5-gallon ferment in it, I don't have enough to cover the element. If I weld a bit of stainless pipe on the side of a slim (1/6 or 5 gallon) sanke keg, I should be able to run about 2-1/2 gallons of low wines without getting into trouble (just a guess), but is the power output going to be so low that I regret it?

A quick search uncovered a 1500w single phase element that needs a minimum 9" diameter water heater, I'm assuming this is a typical element. The slim kegs are >9" diameter so I figure with the extra dimension of the triclover fitting welded on the side of the keg, I should be fine.

If anyone has a similar setup I'd love to know how well/poorly it runs a spirit run!

[NineInchNails]

Volume: 2-1/2 gallons
Volts: 120V
Watts: 1,500w
Starting temp: 70F
Target temp: 173.1F

Time to heat up would be approx 34.7 minutes based on the parameters listed above.

[NineInchNails]

Just a thought and I know this might sound a bit overboard. A 220V 5500W brewing RIMS (Recirculating Infusion Mash System) setup should work on your 15.5 gal boiler even with 2-1/2 gal as long as you place the suction port low in the keg (or a drop tube near the bottom). If you do not know what a RIMS system is ... basically it is a closed recirculating heating system. You pump the mash out of the keg, through a stainless steel housing that contains the heating element and then returns the heated mash back inside the boiler.

[pope]

I'm familiar with RIMS and I have a triclover port already welded to the bottom of my keg (for a drain valve...oh-so-fancy), I never thought of that! But since I'm looking specifically for a spirit run, I'm not sure I'd want to pump hot 20-30% abv low wines through my pump... I could slap a triclover tee on the bottom and slip the 5500w element into a small chamber (maybe a 4" pipe?), but without mechanical circulation I have my doubts whether or not convection could distribute the heat evenly.

[pope]

I also wanted to add that if I weld a few inches of pipe on the end of my kettle, I may be able to fit one of these elements on a slim quarter (11" diameter) or ideally a sixth barrel (9" diameter), allowing me to run with my same psr controller and a 240v element:

https://www.dernord.com/collections/hea ... 3154657344" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

BUT, this is getting to be a stretch, and if a 5-6 gallon ferment yielded about 2ish gallons of low wines (even if I had to dillute a bit), I would still pull off at least 2/3 - 3/4 of a gallon of spirit which may still leave the element running dry. My estimation is that with a 24" tall cylinder, about 20" of that (for a 1/6 barrel) is liquid volume. Broken into fifths, 4" inches of a 1/6 barrel keg would be a gallon, meaning I could potentially fit the element into the bottom 3" and run it down to a 1 gallon charge without ruining the element. Just thinking out loud here.

[NineInchNails]

I'm familiar with RIMS and I have a triclover port already welded to the bottom of my keg (for a drain valve...oh-so-fancy), I never thought of that! But since I'm looking specifically for a spirit run, I'm not sure I'd want to pump hot 20-30% abv low wines through my pump... I could slap a triclover tee on the bottom and slip the 5500w element into a small chamber (maybe a 4" pipe?), but without mechanical circulation I have my doubts whether or not convection could distribute the heat evenly.

My first thought was the stainless steel Chugger Pump. I went to the Chugger website and the impeller is made from FDA Ryton/Teflon and Stainless Steel. I do not see what the two 'Thrust Washers' and Housing Oring are made of. Chugger Data Sheet. Hopefully they are platinum cured silicone. I doubt they are PTFE/Teflon.

I Googled and found Chugger Pump Teflon Thrust Washers as well as Chugger silicone o-rings. I'm not sure if those come stock with the pump or not.

[NineInchNails]

One easy solution would be to just save up more low wines and just do a bigger spirit run.

[pope]

HAHA. Yes, the easier solution is just to make more, for sure, I realize that. That's what I do now. While its a more efficient use of my time, the hobby drifts away from experimentation/crafting to sustenance/production - and I'm not a huge spirits drinker so I'd love to do creating with less drowning-in-spirits by racking up the volume. I made the 'mistake' of buying an 8-gallon oak barrel which was way, way too much production volume and anything I fill it with will probably give me a lifetime supply of that recipe.

I also just bought a tig welder so I'm shopping around for an excuse to make more equipment

Re: the chugger pumps, it's awesome to know so much of the internal parts of the pump are teflon or could be upgraded to teflon. I have one on my brew setup, I'll have to take it apart and look it over.

[OtisT]

I have a similar setup for very small runs. Not exactly the same, but some comparisons may be helpful. I used a small keg that has a 9” diameter but it is shorter. Same diameter as the 1/6 bbl kegs I believe. Mine is a 10 liter (about 2.5 gallon) mini keg. I put a 1.5” ferrule down as low as it could go and my minimum volume that covers the stick element is 1.75 liters. I have taken that minimum volume down even further, to about one liter, by filling the concave bottom of the keg with 1 liter (displacement) of ceramic rasching rings. With the rings in, I heat slowly to ensure the extra mass has time to equalize temp. This makes it perfect for small gin runs.

My element is only 500 watts. While it’s just fine for my gin runs, I would be happier with more power. I plan to get a 1500 watt element for it. My controller was super cheep to build and is capable of handling either element. Details of that build are here: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=73642. I have seen 1500w elements that would fit in this boiler. OldVineZin has a mini-build that uses one like this. A search of his name and “mini” will find that post.

Your thought on the taller ferrule could work too for a longer element if it’s a straight element. I have seen tall ferrules at GlacierTanks.com. Not sure if those would be tall enough for your application. Depends on the element length.

I personally think 1500 watts is plenty for your application. A lot more power on a small element would be a major scorch risk. The calculated times listed in the previous post seem about right for heat up time. (I have another boiler, different dimensions, that runs on 1500w.). I would recommend you insulate the boiler to get the most out of those 1500W.

Otis

[NZChris]

Elements don't have to installed through the side of the still. Mine has two mounted through the bottom of the still, one bent so that it only takes 1.5l to cover it.

[pope]

Otis thanks for the reply! The ceramic rings to displace volume is a killer idea! The 260mm (10-1/4") long element I linked earlier might fit if i weld in a length of pipe so there's a little liquid around the end of the element, 2500w @ 240v is a lot of current but I would be able to plug into my existing PSR controller and save wiring another box, and could just throttle down if its too much power.

How much liquid above the top of the element do y'all deem necessary? I don't have eyes on it in my current setup and have always erred on the side of caution, but 1.75 liters is an impressively small volume! I'm moving on to reading your build.

Gin (and other flavored spirits like liqueurs and absinthe, sambuca, etc) is the exact reason I want a small boiler. That and my current 5-gallon wash of blue agave 'mezcal'. Kind of thing where I hate to throw more money and waste at something in case it doesn't work out.

Chris, you've bent your element?? I figured there was some inner tube or layer that might snap or tear, so I've never tried. Is it at a 90 degree angle?

[pope]

PS I also spec'd out a 4-gallon copper boiler (about a 10" diameter cylinder 12-14" tall (depends on how much sheet there is), plus a cone on top with a 3" rise to a 2" ferrule. Should be about $200 for 20 oz copper, the ferrules, and the romex/ground wire, getting a tig around that project without blowing holes in it is another story. But at that point I'll need to make quite a bit of small batch gin and triple sec to recoup the investment!

[NZChris]

I beat the base to provide a 45 degree entry then bent the element 45 degrees, but the sparky who told me I could bend elements didn't see a problem with bending them further as long as I didn't break the outer tube.

[NZChris]

Adding anything to displace the liquid under the element inhibits convection currents. Cold wash or low wines trapped in a pile of rocks/whatever under the element will just sit there stagnant. If you don't believe that, try it and feel the bottom of the still during the run. You have to decide if you are ok with losing the amount of alcohol and flavor that is trapped in the pile.

[pope]

I'm leaning towards welding up a 4-ish gallon vessel from scratch so that I can mount an element to rest about 1/2" from the bottom and far side. Inhibiting convection and losing spirit doesn't seem worth it! I can make what will basically look like a small milk can out of either copper ($200ish) or stainless ($100ish), just have to determine the 'cool factor' value of the copper. Would look very pretty with a mini shotgun and mounted on threaded feet that connect it to an air-cooled walnut stand/control box.. I would steam punk the s**t out of that.

Otis' point from his build thread stuck with me, the flexibility of a 110 system to allow you to run a mini system anywhere would be great - doing a small spirit run in my kitchen would be a lot more enjoyable than the garage, and the right people would certainly get a kick out of a demonstration. So I'm back to a 1500w 120v element after all, but 30-40 minutes to come up to temp doesn't sound TOO bad.

[NineInchNails]

I'm leaning towards welding up a 4-ish gallon vessel from scratch so that I can mount an element to rest about 1/2" from the bottom and far side. Inhibiting convection and losing spirit doesn't seem worth it! I can make what will basically look like a small milk can out of either copper ($200ish) or stainless ($100ish), just have to determine the 'cool factor' value of the copper. Would look very pretty with a mini shotgun and mounted on threaded feet that connect it to an air-cooled walnut stand/control box.. I would steam punk the s**t out of that.

Otis' point from his build thread stuck with me, the flexibility of a 110 system to allow you to run a mini system anywhere would be great - doing a small spirit run in my kitchen would be a lot more enjoyable than the garage, and the right people would certainly get a kick out of a demonstration. So I'm back to a 1500w 120v element after all, but 30-40 minutes to come up to temp doesn't sound TOO bad.

You could have a small boiler and maybe install two 110v elements. That should really boost the input to speed things up. You would just have to be sure that you are running each element off of an entire separate circuit.

If my math is correct then the following should be accurate:

Volume: 2-1/2 gallons
Volts: 120V
Watts: 3000w
Starting temp: 70F
Target temp: 173.1F

Time to heat up would be approx 17 minutes based on the parameters listed above.

[MtRainier]

For what it's worth, for small batches and gin I got one of these:

https://milehidistilling.com/product/3- ... inch-dome/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

and I heat it on top of one of these:

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10343776/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

which lets you vary the power in 200W increments.

It works great.

I routinely have 2L of liquid in it plus botanicals for Odin's Easy Gin, and it does a good job.

[pope]

That milk can is perfect! I’m on the fence between making and buying. For heat I’m kind of hooked on electric though... on a separate thread I saw PP used a cheap router controller (which I have) for a 110v unit, and just added a heat sink (which I have). A 3/4 weld spud on that milk can and a 1500w element and I could be in business!

[MtRainier]

That milk can is perfect! I’m on the fence between making and buying. For heat I’m kind of hooked on electric though... on a separate thread I saw PP used a cheap router controller (which I have) for a 110v unit, and just added a heat sink (which I have). A 3/4 weld spud on that milk can and a 1500w element and I could be in business!

That milk can has a 2" tri-clamp fitting on it already, but it's set too high to allow for small batches (speaking from experience). It ends up needing about 1.5 gallons in the 3 gallon can just to cover the element. Cutting and adding an element insert would be the ticket if you wanted internal electric heating.

[pope]

it's set too high to allow for small batches (speaking from experience)

Back to the drawing board then. I'll probably build my own vessel out of copper sheet. I can cut the length off of this and weld one on the side very close (maybe 1/2"?) to the bottom:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Elkhart-301 ... le-Adapter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

... and screw one of these into it:

https://www.dernord.com/collections/hea ... nch-thread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

As originally pointed out, it'll take about 35-40 min to come up to temp, but it will run on any old circuit which gives the mini rig a lot of flexibility. I've got a 1-gallon still that is TOO small, but I've been able to run it on a gas burner and my buddy and I have done side-by-side macerated gin runs which is a lot of fun.