Cut Points? Foreshots? Heads and Tails? Feints?

[Frosty36]

I just stumbled across this and it has made more sense than anything else I could find on cuts. Thank you!!
One question, after a stripping run or after a spirit run and you collect the tails, do you just add those back into the next mash or in the still after fermentation right before you run it. ( no thumper for me)?
Or do you take the stripping run and just re-run it and make cuts?

[zapata]

Like so much, it depends on what you're making and how you like to do things.
First off, to me at least, there are no tails in a stripping run. I'm not a fan of making any cuts on a stripping run, and if I did it would be a heads cut, not a tails cut. (somewhat ironically, a heads cut on a stripping run will actually be rich in some compounds that would be in the tails of a spirit run. Thanks to the non-intuitive chemical interactions at play). The vast majority of people collect everything that comes over in a stripping run.

Tails from a spirit run can be used in different ways (heads too). They can be added to the next spirit run (what I tend to do). They can be added to the next stripping run. They can be collected and run by themselves as an all feints run. Lots of options. Lots of reasons to do things differently depending on what you're making too.

If this is confusing, you absolutely can't go wrong with the very typical:
1. strip wash and collect everything, strip deep for anything you want flavor from (these are now called low wines)
2. do a spirit run with low wines and make cuts
3. discard the fores
4. put the heads and/or tails (feints) in with the next batch of low wines for a spirit run.
5. make cuts, lather, rinse, repeat

[Frosty36]

About easy of an explanation I could've asked for. Thanks! Here's a scenario maybe you can clear up. If you make mash, run it (spirit run), make cuts. You save the tails.....now you make another mash. Do you add it into the mash directly for fermentation or into the still before running or just hold it until you have enough to do a run of just tails? does this make sense or is this something that isnt done? I saw you add yours into the next spirit run so im curious at which point.

And how long can you store a stripping run or tails? It can take me a while to collect enough to run just strictly tails.

[NZChris]

Add feints when charging the still, or not at all.

Depending on what you are making and how you do your cuts, putting your stinky rejects into nice clean wash can be a mistake. I mostly save mine, (heads and tails), for all feints runs.

[Twisted Brick]

You save the tails.....now you make another mash. Do you add it into the mash directly for fermentation or into the still before running or just hold it until you have enough to do a run of just tails? does this make sense or is this something that isn't done?

On a carefully converted mash, yeast do their best work in a controlled environment of temp, ph and oxygen. All with the final result of of a 7-9% ABV beer. Dumping 30-50%ABV tails directly into your ferment would induce unneeded stress. Like Zapata recommended, some distillers add 'em to the next strip, next spirit run, or run 'em on their own.

[Mr Sippy]

There's a sticky at the top of this section on rerunning feints also.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18823

[Frosty36]

Depending on what you are making and how you do your cuts, putting your stinky rejects into nice clean wash can be a mistake. I mostly save mine, (heads and tails), for all feints runs.

So
Option 1 )Maybe do a couple of stripping runs, mix it together and run a spirit run out of it?
Option 2) Do spirit runs and collect the tails and once i have enough do a spirit run?

I've been reading on the thread for feints and the terms seem to run together, some interchangeably.

Just want to have a good plan before I even mash in.

[Frosty36]

You save the tails.....now you make another mash. Do you add it into the mash directly for fermentation or into the still before running or just hold it until you have enough to do a run of just tails? does this make sense or is this something that isn't done?

On a carefully converted mash, yeast do their best work in a controlled environment of temp, ph and oxygen. All with the final result of of a 7-9% ABV beer. Dumping 30-50%ABV tails directly into your ferment would induce unneeded stress. Like Zapata recommended, some distillers add 'em to the next strip, next spirit run, or run 'em on their own.

To add them into the next strip or spirit run, you mean put everything into the pot at time of distillation?

[Bushman]

You save the tails.....now you make another mash. Do you add it into the mash directly for fermentation or into the still before running or just hold it until you have enough to do a run of just tails? does this make sense or is this something that isn't done?

On a carefully converted mash, yeast do their best work in a controlled environment of temp, ph and oxygen. All with the final result of of a 7-9% ABV beer. Dumping 30-50%ABV tails directly into your ferment would induce unneeded stress. Like Zapata recommended, some distillers add 'em to the next strip, next spirit run, or run 'em on their own.

To add them into the next strip or spirit run, you mean put everything into the pot at time of distillation?

Yes!

[jonnys_spirit]

Once I get into a couple back to back runs I'll keep mashing and stripping and collect low wines, feints, and some backset to add together into the boiler for the spirit run for flavored spirits like whiskey and bourbon which has been my main product although I regularly do some grappa and blue agave which is similar.

I've also been reading up on the feints threads and might start ditching some heads out of the feints carboy for recycling. For my last grappa run I have added the used grape skins into the grappa feints to macerate for a year or so to be included into the next grappa runs this fall after I make some more wine. Those are now quite flavored and still macerating - I expect they will contribute significantly to the grappa.

It's certainly an work experiment in progress

Cheers!
-jonny

[NZChris]

A few days ago I opened a bottle of rum I'd made out of another distiller's rum foreshots and heads collection a couple of years ago. Looking at the distilling notes, I see a fair bit had gone into the fuel jar, but the heart cut has become a nice light rum suitable for drinking straight and for blending. Before distilling, I'd added a charred toasted oak domino, tiny amounts of nutmeg and orange peel and set the temperature to 150F for six days. After distilling it was heated to 150F for six days with JD chips, vanilla bean and a few dark roasted coffee beans.

It's not the first time I've pulled off this type of trick. Some of my rum essences for blending have been made using reprocessed rum heads and tails. I'm currently using reprocessed UJSSM heads when making gin.

[Frosty36]

I dont drink rum, but that flavor profile sounds delicious. What is UJSSM?
I asked this on another forum but I'm curious of different peoples views.....at what point during a spirit run would you stop collecting tails( feints?)?? Still trying to learn the terms so correct me if I use anything in the wrong way. I've read that some stop at 20 or 30% abv.
And on the stripping run aspect, you just run a bigger volume hot and fast and get a lower volume to collect, no cuts made correct?

[Frosty36]

It's certainly an work experiment in progress

This is an understatement. But, like you guys..i love it.

[still_stirrin]

....What is UJSSM?

huh???

Go to the Tried & True recipe forum and look...the answer to your question is there!

[jonnys_spirit]

Every time I run the still whether stripping or spirit runs I'll bring it up to temp then lower it down to slow drops to collect the first 200ml low and slow - this is foreshots and discarded or saved for cleaner/lighter-fuel.

Stripping runs are then run hard and fast all the way down to close to 0% ABV coming out or close to about 210*F vapor temp in the top of my column. This strips all the alcohol out of the wash into your low-wines. For my 16g potstill that nets me about 4 gallons or so of low-wines depending on my initial wash ABV which I keep around 8-10%ABV. Low wines are then about 35-40%ABV. I'll strip about 3-4 charges worth of wash to collect a full charge of low wines for a spirit run. I collect low wines in a five or six gallon glass carboy.

Spirit runs are the second distillation of the collected low wines and are run fairly slow (pencil lead sized stream after collecting and discarding foreshots. Collect your spirit run in fractions. Say about every 500ml in an incrementally numbered mason jar. ie; jars 1-24 or whatever. I'll fraction my spirit run out until I'm def into tails a couple / four jars or whatever (maybe down to 40% ABV then I'll go into strip mode to quickly strip the rest of the tails into a single tails jar. Let fractions air out for a day or three then make your cuts for aging or whatever.


Good luck and cheers!
-jonny

[CuWhistle]

Every time I run the still whether stripping or spirit runs I'll bring it up to temp then lower it down to slow drops to collect the first 200ml low and slow - this is foreshots and discarded or saved for cleaner/lighter-fuel.
-

Which would be the same as taking 250 ml off 4 strips and not worrying about it in the spirit run. Either way, you've got 1 L of reject.

Edit. This is wrong. Ignore. There is significant difference for reasons I hadn't considered.

[CuWhistle]

I've reconsidered. I make no apology for my frugal cuts. Quality is in the drink. Foreshots, out in the strip (within new moderation). Heads, out in the cuts. Tails, don't even go there. Results speak for themselves. Hearts, middle cut, 3rd jar, call it what you will. There is no point putting rubbish in your drink. I'm glad I had the Rad treatment.

It took me a long time to realize that there was waste product first time around. I tried to find a way to use everything. Now I just accept it and the results speak for themselves. No headaches. No throat or tongue burn. No shitty tails after flavors. Lots of cleaning fluid to get rid of stuff that wont die around the house. 50 in 50 out.

I thought that was what this forum was trying to instill into new members. Quality not quantity. We aren't using continuous stills and we aren't trying to keep everything.

[Frosty36]

I've reconsidered. I make no apology for my frugal cuts. Quality is in the drink. Foreshots, out in the strip (within new moderation). Heads, out in the cuts. Tails, don't even go there. Results speak for themselves. Hearts, middle cut, 3rd jar, call it what you will. There is no point putting rubbish in your drink. I'm glad I had the Rad treatment.

It took me a long time to realize that there was waste product first time around. I tried to find a way to use everything. Now I just accept it and the results speak for themselves. No headaches. No throat or tongue burn. No shitty tails after flavors. Lots of cleaning fluid to get rid of stuff that wont die around the house. 50 in 50 out.

I thought that was what this forum was trying to instill into new members. Quality not quantity. We aren't using continuous stills and we aren't trying to keep everything.

So you recommend making cuts during a stripping run? I'm open to everyones ideas bc I'm still trying to find what works. I'd much rather have a product that doesnt tear my head up the next day and my family likes.

[CuWhistle]

These are not really "cuts" to me, as much as they are simply removal of byproduct. You don't have to do it and you'll still be able to get smooth product. It's just what I've chosen to do and it works for me.

To my understanding, "cuts" refers to the points between heads and hearts, then hearts and tails. These are made from and within the collected containers not including foreshots. So to me the removal of this waste product is not a "cut" in the sense of the word as used in this application. The removal of foreshots in stripping runs is common practice but I apparently take more than some. I then don't worry about it too much in the spirit run.

There are good arguments against this and I'm going to investigate further.

[NZChris]

When I use the word 'cut' I really mean choosing a blend. 'Cut' is more appropriate when you have done the same product over and over and are able to cut 'on the fly' as they do in the industry. Unfortunately, newbies see the word cut and then get the idea that they should be able to cut on the fly like they see idiots on YouTube doing.

I watched another distiller run his UJSSM and got him to choose his heart cut and make up a sample. Then I went through my method with him and chose my preferred cut and made up a sample. He preferred my cut, which gave him more product and with better flavor. It also meant that his heads and tails were a lot nastier than they were in the past. While he might have gotten away with recycling them into the next wash before, (he didn't do that), he wouldn't have gotten away with doing that with the feints left over from my selection.

When you see posters saying that they continually recycle their feints, they might only be getting away with it because of the way they choose their heart cut. If you are choosing a wider cut than them and try recycling your feints, you might soon find yourself getting smaller heart cuts, which is what happened to me when I tried it making rum.

[CuWhistle]

Good point. Cutting and blending is as important as anything else. Getting it right or wrong is crucial.

Reading what Der wo and Jimbo wrote over in the Jimbo's easy 1/2 Barrel Wheated bourbon & gumballhead thread has me thinking, but I can already see an obvious contradiction. Der wo on the one hand advocates taking less foreshots out in the strip, which raises the total ABV of the low wines charge for the spirit run (up to a max of 40% obviously), and consequently gives the eventual hearts a higher strength and that makes sense. He then however, says to go right down deep into the tails, which will have the exact opposite affect, but with the benefit of bringing desirable flavours. He and Jimbo disagree about the age softening of a "headsy" drink but then der wo explains the open to air aging process he uses.

All very interesting stuff.

[NZChris]

Der wo on the one hand advocates taking less foreshots out in the strip, which raises the total ABV of the low wines charge for the spirit run (up to a max of 40% obviously), and consequently gives the eventual hearts a higher strength and that makes sense.

It would only raise the ABV if the distiller was deciding on when to stop stripping by watching ABV at the spout, which is something I do not recommend. Stopping with the ideal ABV in the low wines is a better way to go. Taking a smaller foreshot then automatically means you strip for longer getting more of the late flavors, which be the point that der wo was making.

He then however, says to go right down deep into the tails, which will have the exact opposite affect, but with the benefit of bringing desirable flavours. He and Jimbo disagree about the age softening of a "headsy" drink but then der wo explains the open to air aging process he uses.

The style and how soon you want to consume it has to be taken into consideration when deciding on foreshot and heads cuts. I cut narrow for product I want to drink as young white dog, and wide for product that will be in the cellar for years. My white dog UJSSM is one of my favorite drinks and I'm putting less and less onto oak because I keep running out of white and there is already plenty on oak.

[CuWhistle]

Makes perfect sense.

[CuWhistle]

Heads is heads. Tails is tails and doing what I've been doing means I've been missing out on nothing much. I could actually double the take off from the strips and not be concerned at the loss. I've just spent 8 1/2 hours doing a real low and slow all-feints run and there was almost nothing in it that I'd want to keep. This is after letting in sit for 5 days on bicarb. Waste of gas and pump water electricity in my opinion. Mind you the end of it might make some nice drink but why wade through 5 or 6 hours of crap to get an hour of quality that you missed in your cuts.

As a qualifying statement, this is all done with a basic pot still and I put the strip run removed foreshots back in to measure just how much is required to remove.

If I had a reflux I'm sure I'd have some nice neutral.

[NZChris]

How much copper have you got in your still and where is it?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf

[NZChris]

As a qualifying statement, this is all done with a basic pot still and I put the strip run removed foreshots back in to measure just how much is required to remove.

I have never seen a home distiller recommending putting foreshots into an all feints run. You might have confirmed why it is a bad idea.

[CuWhistle]

Yes. It was a bad idea but it was done to conduct the test.

[CuWhistle]

All copper.

[NZChris]

Yes. It was a bad idea but it was done to conduct the test.

Thanks for doing the test. I hope newbies find this thread and save themselves the trouble of repeating your results.

[NZChris]

All copper.

Nice