Kettle souring with Lactobacilius

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Another Lacto souring post. This time with a more controllable method. This method will allow better reproducibility. It's kinda like sour mashing/dunder. You grow Lacto for X amount of time then pitch a yeast or pasteurize it to stop souring then pitch the yeast. As I've never tried this before I can't tell you what effect it would have on the distillate or aged product. We know that Lacto tends to produce better mouthfeel and a "creamier" flavor. What we don't know is how much is not enough/just right/too much.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow <-- My new favorite website

Wort Souring is the process of Mixed Fermentation where lactic acid bacteria, usually Lactobacillus (although there are also Pediococcus cultures available that work well for this technique), is given a "head start" as it's pitched before the yeast so that it will be able to produce significant amounts of lactic acid before the Saccharomyces completes the main fermentation. This is a broadly defined technique and there are many variations on souring wort. These include souring in the primary fermenter, souring in a secondary vessel, or souring in the boil kettle itself (kettle souring). There are also various methods of inoculating the wort with Lactobacillus. Finally, the brewer has the option of pasteurizing the wort by heating it to kill the Lactobacillus before adding the yeast for the main fermentation.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/blogs/ex ... -made-easy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Kettle souring is a technique that allows brewers to rapidly sour unfermented wort in just a matter of days, often taking only a mere 24 hours. It could not be more simple - after creating wort and conducting a brief boil for sanitation, the wort is cooled to 75 - 95 degrees F (24 - 35 C) and a cultured strain (or blend of strains) of pure lactobacillus is introduced. Once introduced, the lactobacillus will go to work and begin consuming sugars in the wort transforming them into lactic acid, providing the tart flavor we know and love. Given some time, usually 1 to 3 days, the souring will be complete.

https://beerandbrewing.com/become-a-kettle-sour-expert/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Our controlled infection will let Lacto do its job, which is primarily creating lactic acid, but with the chemistry of acids and alcohols plus the nuanced differences between strains of Lacto, you can end up with low but noticeable levels of succinate, formate, and other chemicals, which can lead to interesting esters that come across as geranium, woody flavors, raspberry, and even sweet cream.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Video with some useful info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EJUfpDMC8Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hohm4V7F_uQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Beerswimmer]

I make kettle sour beers all the time. Super easy. And they get SOUR!!!

I use Goodbelly as my source of lacto since it has l. Plantarum in it, and it sours quickly at room temps. I make wort with no hops, chill to 90F, add Goodbelly and wait 96hrs(I like it sour....~3.1PH, 48hrs would be enough for most people ~3.4), then treat the wort like normal wort. I might try a quick UJSSM here in a day or so just to see what it's like. The use of backset sours, so I never really tried it, but the lacto will get it even more sour.

[Beerswimmer]

I made 3 gens of UJSSM and added the plantarum at the 2nd gen, it got VERY sour. Now I'm doing a BWKO with the UJSSM leftovers and it's as sour as I think it could possibly get. The sourest of sour mashes. I stripped gen 1 and was reminded of a Tennessee whisky sour twang. I'll be going to a 3rd gen with this and then a spirit and diposing of the grainbed. I'm expecting excellent results. I'll probably add plantarum to my "bourbon" washes from now on.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Also interested in the long term affects of this. Do you plan on aging it for a while?

[Beerswimmer]

Also interested in the long term affects of this. Do you plan on aging it for a while?

A year in a used Balcones barrel.

[Beerswimmer]

I'm not sure what's going on with gen 2, I'm stripping it now and it's not normal. Smells like nothing I've ever made before, possibly due to an infection? Not sure, but it could just be TOO sour and the lactic acid is too much and distilling it makes it even worse?. Will not be adding this to the other low wines. I'll try to do a spirit run on this sometime and see what happens.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Let us know. I believe that like you said it might be too strong. Age may help, maybe not enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_plantarum

Lactobacilli are unusual in that they can respire oxygen but have no respiratory chain or cytochromes[4] — the consumed oxygen ultimately ends up as hydrogen peroxide.

Did you oxygenate the mash or open ferment? Could this off flavor be hydrogen peroxide? I have no idea for certain as no one has tried this before (that we know of).

For the seasoned dunder it is recommended to add it after primary fermentation is complete. Maybe that is something that would work here too. It also would reduce the amount of available sugar to control how much LAB can grow.

I am working on a side project. Once that is done I'll be back to fun stuff. I will try this and see if I get similar results.

[Beerswimmer]

I'll stick my nose in the carboy again tonight. Last night it was smelling....bad. And strongly so. Maybe a hint of bile? Just all of the bad parts of acidity concentrated. Not just a hint of something bad, but "WTF is THAT???" I collected 5 gallons or so of low wines, it would be a shame to pour it all out. I'll probably use my small rig and run them by themselves to see what it's like. If it's nasty and not good for whiskey I'll reflux it to neutral.

I oxygenated by stirring the hell out of it when I added the sugar and grains for gen 2. Not really open ferment, a big 50 gallon tub with a not air tight lid and a blanket over the lid to keep bugs out. My recipe was cracked corn used for 3 gens of UJSSM, then after I added 15lbs of mashed pale 2 row for this gen 1. Gen 2 I added 15lbs of mashed Vienna. Gen 1 was amazing, gen 2 is not. I had a taste of the wash as I was filling the boilers and it was about as sour as L. plantarum can get. Probably 3.0 PH. Nothing in the wash to stop it or slow it down, it went nuts for weeks now.

I only add the saved backset(10% of the wash) after fermentation is complete. No problems with fermentation that way.

I'm going to toss the grainbed and sterilize my fermentor and start over. I probably won't add any L. plantarum just to keep variables minimized. But I will do it again. It certainly helped my UJSSM to have more character, it will probably help most sugar based "whiskey" recipes get more sourness if wanted. But it may be only good for a gen or 2 before it gets to be too much? So maybe only add the LAB for the last gen?

There are ways of stopping/killing the LAB once the sourness level is where you want it to be. In beer brewing, adding hops kills it. In making sugar based washes, adding a % of boiling temp water or wort would work. Then you would need to allow it to cool and add yeast as normal. This may be the best use. Treating it like a kettle sour after all.

[Beerswimmer]

I smelled the carboy with the low wines just now. It doesn't smell like whiskey, or any kind of booze really. Just straight sour lactic acid....but concentrated. What makes things smell sour times ten. Ever taste powdered lactic acid? Bile and vomit. Not good. I cleaned out the fermentor and the "sour" smell is overwhelming. A little lactic acid is a delicious thing, but way too much and then concentrating it through a still isn't.

My plan for next time: to keep my backset in a seperate container, add some sugar and LAB and let it sour until fermentation is complete, then pasteurize it and add to the rest of the ferment. It will be exceedingly sour, way more than any backset would be. It should be just about right. This way is also adjustable since you can control the sourness levels. Letting the plantarum run wild isn't a good protocol.

ETA: The bad sourness was only in the spirits, the backset smelled heavenly and was only very slightly sour.

[Beerswimmer]

UPDATE: It's all good!!!

I put a coffee filter on the carboy of low wines and it was in my 90-100 degree garage for the past week. Today I went to dump it and I thought I had the wrong carboy for a minute. It's 100% fine now! All the nasty acid and bile has evaporated and it's now a very tasty smelling carboy of low wines! I'm still not sure if I'll try the plantarum for a while, but now we know that it will be good. It just needs some days to off gas the nasties

Stripping the next gen with backset from the "bad" gen tomorrow. I saved the backset to add since it smelled so good.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Another article on hot to do it, this time from Michael Tonsmeire: https://byo.com/article/overnight-acidification/

[Beerswimmer]

@Single Malt Yinzer

Yep that's the basic pre-souring method. You can sour prior to yeast like above, or after yeast as a post-souring method. Post souring lets yeast be more expressive and estery, pre-souring cuts a lot of flavorful yeast activity. Just pitch a flavorful yeast into an unhopped wort, then add bacteria after a few days of fermentation. Then add hops(or not) when the sourness is to your desired level. You can also just co-pitch both yeast and bacteria into unhopped wort and add hops(or not) when the sourness is to your desired level, but again the yeast flavors will be a bit subdued. Co-pitching just speed up the whole process by a few days. Any way that you add bacteria to unhopped, or very lightly hopped, wort will sour.

My update: I kept everything and did a spirit run. It was OK, not great. Still had a whiff of the bad flavor after 4 days of airing. Made very tight cuts and put into a used Balcones bourbon barrel to see what happens. Hopefull time and oak will work wonders.

I don't plan on souring mashes again, except with backset. I'm not sold on the process for distillation yet. I will continue to make tasty kettle beers though!

[Single Malt Yinzer]

I think that your tests are good for us to understand if the standard process is bad for distilling or not. It's not sounding great so far. I have a couple ideas to try and maybe we'll see if they help or not. It might just be a very little lacto goes a long way for distillers vs Brewers.

And thanks for trying it out.

[Beerswimmer]

I believe that a different strain of LAB may be better for distilling than plantarum. Most great bourbons have a moderate amount of lacto, but are more naturally inoculated. And they aren't over the top sour like mine.

Pedicoccus may work too.

[BourbonStreet]

I’ve noticed if I leave my cleared UJSSM wash sitting for a few months, it has what looks like lactobacillus floating on top. Not much, but it’s there. Whatever it is, it makes a smooth spirit!

[CuWhistle]

I have a healthy lacto flower growing on the surface of some leftover sugar over used grain. When I last emptied my fermenter I didn't remove the grain as I intended on putting another sugar wash over it with some fresh corn and micronised barley. I covered the grain back over with a bit of water and never got around to putting it together as I've simply been too busy. This was probably a fortnight to 3 weeks ago.

When I took the lid off it yesterday there is a really healthy lacto growing right over the whole thing but it still smells really good. Really sweat and sugary. Not rancid, funky or vomitous at all. Is it worth putting some sugar in to see what happens or would it be best to simply junk it? I have plenty of work ahead just finishing up my spirit runs from a few strips so I don't need it, but I was just considering the fact that it may make a good drop.

I have run into some slight lacto on UJ before and it was never a problem but this is now in full bloom. Any thoughts?