A choice between Stills

[navan4]

As I said in a previous post, I was searching for a new still to replace my cheap chinese still, but in the process I think it would be wise to go for one that could do both neutrals and spirits, mainly from sugar washes. I hope to obtain over 90% when doing neutrals (reflux) and over 60% when doing spirits (pot still). If anyone has any experience or knowledge of either options, your input would be appreciated. They're all 2" columns with 30-38 liter boilers (8-10 gal.) to make a fair compare and I think this is the best route for me. Of course, I would be changing the gaskets for PTFE.

Option #1
https://www.northstills.com/product/cop ... re-boiler/

Option #2
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000396 ... 0396442295

Option #3
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000492 ... 7d50Bx5Hs6

[Swedish Pride]

how about making a CCVM, very little fab work needed and you'd have a potty and a column in one...
I don't have one but hear good things about them

[greggn]

how about making a CCVM, very little fab work needed and you'd have a potty and a column in one...

+1

Easy to build ... easy to run.

[navan4]

how about making a CCVM, very little fab work needed and you'd have a potty and a column in one...
I don't have one but hear good things about them

That is an idea, but I can't seem to source the materials for a decent price locally and from the net it comes to almost the same price, or slightly more expensive.

[Tummydoc]

If you are buying, I like #2 for the cost, but you will need packing in the column for reflux. I think you could build for half the cost, but will take th time to get all the pieces. I've built a shotgun condenser, but for $55 USD I'd buy the stainless 2 inch from distillex and save the headache

[navan4]

If you are buying, I like #2 for the cost, but you will need packing in the column for reflux.

Either option I would use, when refluxing, 5" wide copper mesh (rolled) x 4.

[cayars]

#2 all the way.
Great price, good condensers, easy to clean pot, ball valve for draining, port for electric setup.
You'll need to get cooling hoses and needle valves.

It's a very flexible head that will let you do reflux or pot still runs including fast strips.

If you ever wanted to play with a CCVM still (not sure why) you could remove a 45 degree section from the top and add a T section. Then drop in a coil.

[Windswept]

If you're in the GTA or can pick up from there, North Stills is ok, it's what I have and it's good for a first still. I have the older version with no option for a drain, so it's really nice to see they've added that. I'm pretty sure they import the stuff from China, so you might be better off just ordering direct if it needs to be shipped...

[still_stirrin]

Option 1 is very robust, both the boiler and the tower. It is a CM, which requires water adjustment to manage the reflux ratio, so it will be tricky if trying to push the proof too high.

Option 2 is also a CM, however a less substantial boiler. The lid (to the boiler) is held in place with a few spring clamps which must offset the loads imposed by the tower in operation (eccentric). The seal (silicone) will need to be uniformly compressed to maintain a good seal. Like option 1, the CM design is tricky to maintain stable reflux ratios.

Option 3 is a LM similar to a Bokakob (slant plate liquid collection cup) design. LMs by design are good at high proof production. But, they are historically slow producers. This option is more robust than the option 2 design, in that the boiler lid clamp (a hoop clamp) fully wraps around the joint making it much more solid to transfer eccentric loads imposed from the column to the boiler. This option will maintain a high purity product as the output is regulated by the needle valve. The small Liebig condenser will cool the distillate back to room temperature for collection and measurement.

Now price is a consideration but should not be overlooked. Option 1 is expensive compared to the other 2 options. Option 2 is the least costly, but it is also the cheapest design. Option 3 appears to offer the best build quality for the cost. This seems to be the “best value”, however it is a different reflux management system from the other 2 options.

Bottomline...you know your budget and your preferred reflux management system. All I can add is my personal opinions. I have a combination LM/VM reflux head (that I made). The LM operation is excellent at heads and foreshots compression, while the VM operation is very good at pushing tails to the very end while keeping the reflux ratio stable though the run. It is very easy to set and operate.

But you want to buy...happy shopping.
ss

[navan4]

#2 all the way.
Great price, good condensers, easy to clean pot, ball valve for draining, port for electric setup.
You'll need to get cooling hoses and needle valves.

I lean slightly towards #2 also, because of price, but I was curious if #3 had any advantage over the others and if #1 would be more durable.

If you ever wanted to play with a CCVM still (not sure why) you could remove a 45 degree section from the top and add a T section. Then drop in a coil.

Well maybe, since many hold the CCVM still on a pedestal, but you seem not to share this praise...

[navan4]

If you're in the GTA or can pick up from there, North Stills is ok, it's what I have and it's good for a first still. I have the older version with no option for a drain, so it's really nice to see they've added that. I'm pretty sure they import the stuff from China, so you might be better off just ordering direct if it needs to be shipped...

Nice to know you own one, is the quality very good? The thicknes of steel/copper thicker than the others or similar?

[navan4]

Option 1 is very robust, both the boiler and the tower. It is a CM, which requires water adjustment to manage the reflux ratio, so it will be tricky if trying to push the proof too high.

At first, I disliked the CM style still, but now I feel at ease with this design and actually enjoy it more.

Option 2 is also a CM, however a less substantial boiler. The lid (to the boiler) is held in place with a few spring clamps which must offset the loads imposed by the tower in operation (eccentric). The seal (silicone) will need to be uniformly compressed to maintain a good seal. Like option 1, the CM design is tricky to maintain stable reflux ratios.

Do you think durability will be an issue? I would like my next still to last at least 12 years.

Option 3 is a LM similar to a Bokakob (slant plate liquid collection cup) design. LMs by design are good at high proof production. But, they are historically slow producers. This option is more robust than the option 2 design, in that the boiler lid clamp (a hoop clamp) fully wraps around the joint making it much more solid to transfer eccentric loads imposed from the column to the boiler. This option will maintain a high purity product as the output is regulated by the needle valve. The small Liebig condenser will cool the distillate back to room temperature for collection and measurement.

Would this still be half the speed of the CM above? I now have a CM reflux that gives me about 400ml/hour and would like it to be faster.

Now price is a consideration but should not be overlooked. Option 1 is expensive compared to the other 2 options. Option 2 is the least costly, but it is also the cheapest design. Option 3 appears to offer the best build quality for the cost. This seems to be the “best value”, however it is a different reflux management system from the other 2 options.

The most important is a durability of at least 12 years and second an increase in my actual take off rate, then ABV% and price would be last.

Bottomline...you know your budget and your preferred reflux management system. All I can add is my personal opinions. I have a combination LM/VM reflux head (that I made). The LM operation is excellent at heads and foreshots compression, while the VM operation is very good at pushing tails to the very end while keeping the reflux ratio stable though the run. It is very easy to set and operate.

But you want to buy...happy shopping.
ss

Thank you!

[still_stirrin]

Do you think durability will be an issue? I would like my next still to last at least 12 years.

I doubt you’ll use the option 2 still for 12 years.

Would this still be half the speed of the CM above? I now have a CM reflux that gives me about 400ml/hour and would like it to be faster.

That is incredibly slow...slower than a Bokakob! I would expect to collect at least 4 times as fast as that. I collect at roughly 300-350ml per 15 minutes from my VM at 190 proof from a low wines wash.

The most important is a durability of at least 12 years and second an increase in my actual take off rate, then ABV% and price would be last.

If you buy the cheapest option, you won’t use it for 12 years. If you buy the most expensive option, you will use it for 12 years. You should be able to increase the takeoff rate with any of the options, but option 1 will operate the fastest of the 3. Option 3 will consistently produce the highest purity, but at the slowest production rate.

You’ve made yourself a convoluted decision. Good luck.
ss

[cayars]

Well maybe, since many hold the CCVM still on a pedestal, but you seem not to share this praise...

No, not at all. I very much like CCVM stills (have one) but prefer the CM style in #2 better if you get a good needle valve. What I don't like about the CCVM still in my environment is that the top of the still will sit between floor boards with only a few inches clearance making adjustments a pain in the but to make. I'd have to take the column apart to put the coil in or take it off to cap it. The other thing I'm not crazy about is having to make changes at the top of the HOT STILL vs just turning a needle valve I find more accurate to use. If I were using this setup in the garage then it doesn't matter as I don't have a height restriction making the change over pretty easy.

If you don't mind, let me give you option #4 which is what I'm setting up in my basement at present. It's actually a combination of your option 1 and 2 both in features and price.

Step up to a 13 gallon milk can that is high quality and will last you 12 years. $340ish with shipping included.

You can get these milk cans with 2", 3" or 4" ferrules.

Then add the CM head/column to it via aliexpress. $153 including shipping, copper mesh, needle valves and coolant hoses.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000207 ... 235d148022
Specify you want the 2" ferrule and not the 1.5" as pictured and they will change out the bottom sanitary spool for you.

That combo gives you a good head that can be used for pot still or reflux and you get a much better boiler built like a tank. The boiler having a nice drain and FILL PORT would allow you to do strips without having to remove the column to fill.

You end up with a very module still and nicely built shotgun style condensers. The shotgun condensers allow for fast strip runs.

[navan4]

I doubt you’ll use the option 2 still for 12 years.

Then that leaves #1 and #3

That is incredibly slow...slower than a Bokakob! I would expect to collect at least 4 times as fast as that. I collect at roughly 300-350ml per 15 minutes from my VM at 190 proof from a low wines wash.

1200ml per hour is very acceptable, so all options good.

If you buy the cheapest option, you won’t use it for 12 years. If you buy the most expensive option, you will use it for 12 years. You should be able to increase the takeoff rate with any of the options, but option 1 will operate the fastest of the 3. Option 3 will consistently produce the highest purity, but at the slowest production rate.

Option #1 has the upper edge it would seem, for speed and durability, unless #3 can last 12 years also...

You’ve made yourself a convoluted decision. Good luck.
ss

Thank you for the enlightenment!

[StillerBoy]

1200ml per hour is very acceptable, so all options good.

That's on the slow side.. you will want to upgrade on that very soon after you had the setup..

Mars

[navan4]

Well maybe, since many hold the CCVM still on a pedestal, but you seem not to share this praise...

No, not at all. I very much like CCVM stills (have one) but prefer the CM style in #2 better if you get a good needle valve. What I don't like about the CCVM still in my environment is that the top of the still will sit between floor boards with only a few inches clearance making adjustments a pain in the but to make. I'd have to take the column apart to put the coil in or take it off to cap it. The other thing I'm not crazy about is having to make changes at the top of the HOT STILL vs just turning a needle valve I find more accurate to use. If I were using this setup in the garage then it doesn't matter as I don't have a height restriction making the change over pretty easy.

If you don't mind, let me give you option #4 which is what I'm setting up in my basement at present. It's actually a combination of your option 1 and 2 both in features and price.

Step up to a 13 gallon milk can that is high quality and will last you 12 years. $340ish with shipping included.

You can get these milk cans with 2", 3" or 4" ferrules.

Then add the CM head/column to it via aliexpress. $153 including shipping, copper mesh, needle valves and coolant hoses.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000207 ... 235d148022
Specify you want the 2" ferrule and not the 1.5" as pictured and they will change out the bottom sanitary spool for you.

That combo gives you a good head that can be used for pot still or reflux and you get a much better boiler built like a tank. The boiler having a nice drain and FILL PORT would allow you to do strips without having to remove the column to fill.

You end up with a very module still and nicely built shotgun style condensers. The shotgun condensers allow for fast strip runs.

Well yes I can always get a boiler similar to the one you posted except in 30 liter (8 gal.) for $ 285.00 usd, since I don't want larger than this with a 2" column, but the column would be as durable as the boiler if I go that route?

[navan4]

1200ml per hour is very acceptable, so all options good.

That's on the slow side.. you will want to upgrade on that very soon after you had the setup..

Mars

If that's the case, I will be very satisfied with the performance of option #1, if I go that route.

[cayars]

Well yes I can always get a boiler similar to the one you posted except in 30 liter (8 gal.) for $ 285.00 usd, since I don't want larger than this with a 2" column, but the column would be as durable as the boiler if I go that route?

Answering in reverse order. These are the same sanitary pipes used in industry (dairy, food, etc) and are welded not soldered so they will hold up fine.

"since I don't want larger than this with a 2" column". A 2" column like in #2 or #4 will easily handle boilers way bigger than the boilers mentioned here. With the shotgun condensers you could also add a 3" to 2" reducer and swap the bottom sanitary spool for a 3" column if you want twice as much vapor area for better refluxing capability. It's easy to make changes like this on modular still rather cheaply. Many people run 4" flutes with 2" shotgun condensers as they have the ability to knock down the vapor.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000499 ... b201603_53

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3294797 ... b201603_53

A few things to think about:
For refluxing the amount of vapor in the column itself will have a big affect on ability to fraction, while for pot stilling or stripping the amount of knock down power you have in your product condenser will be the major limiter. As long as you can knock down the vapor rate in your PC the heating then becomes the bottle neck in how fast your still can run.

While you might have other reasons to want to stay at 8 gallons keep in mind you'll only fill it to about 6 gallons leaving head space where a 13 gallon can have 10 to 11 gallons in it with head space for almost twice as much in the boiler. If you have an 8% ferment of 6 gallons you have less than a half gallon of pure alcohol to distill vs .88 gallons on a 11 gallon fill. The amount of alcohol available in the boiler directly relates to the size of your hearts and how long it lasts. Bigger boilers make cuts easier to make.

[navan4]

Answering in reverse order. These are the same sanitary pipes used in industry (dairy, food, etc) and are welded not soldered so they will hold up fine.

Seems logical.

A few things to think about:
For refluxing the amount of vapor in the column itself will have a big affect on ability to fraction, while for pot stilling or stripping the amount of knock down power you have in your product condenser will be the major limiter. As long as you can knock down the vapor rate in your PC the heating then becomes the bottle neck in how fast your still can run.

The reason behind my desire for an 8 gallon boiler I can run it by induction on my stove, thus having 2400 watts at my disposal for free, it does have a 1/2" lip and is not flat bottom, but a cast iron chimney damper or full ring will correct this.

While you might have other reasons to want to stay at 8 gallons keep in mind you'll only fill it to about 6 gallons leaving head space where a 13 gallon can have 10 to 11 gallons in it with head space for almost twice as much in the boiler. If you have an 8% ferment of 6 gallons you have less than a half gallon of pure alcohol to distill vs .88 gallons on a 11 gallon fill. The amount of alcohol available in the boiler directly relates to the size of your hearts and how long it lasts. Bigger boilers make cuts easier to make.

True if doing a whiskey mash I would be limited to 6 gallons because of foaming, but I mostly do sugar washes with 7 gallons and never had an issue of puking.

But I do like your idea of mixing boiler and column to accomplish a #4 option.
No longer have a copper column, but the economy would be hard not to consider by going this route.

[cayars]

Hope you don't mind me responding with a bit of banter. Just trying to make sure you make an informed decision and don't have regrets later because you didn't think of something.

You can run either 8 or 13 gallon on the induction stove if you really want to do that. I don't think there is much difference in height with them (check specs). Something to check on is clearance height. Take a measurement from the top of the stove to the ceiling and make sure you have proper clearance for the boiler and head/column. It would suck to not quite fit! You can get columns of different heights if this is a problem.

That's my problem at the moment. I've got reflux stills but have to run them in my unattached garage which has no water or heat/cooling so it's limits the times of the year I'll run them and they are propane so I don't want to bring them inside. Thus I run my smaller pot still in my basement on a gas stove next to the sink (also where I do ferments). Low ceilings keep me from running reflux this way so I'm going electric on my current in the works build and running at "floor height" to gain the height I need for a proper column height. If you build the controller yourself you can convert to electric for $50ish which might be something to consider. Can always be done later as well.

Since this would be a modular still you could remove the bottom "column" sanitary spool and replace it with a home made copper column or pick one up such as $65 including shipping https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3284424 ... 6e01d777ad
or you could do what I do and just pick up a piece of flat copper sheeting, cut it length wise to tube length and cut the width to the circumference of the tube. Wrap it around the outside of the tube to shape it, then stuff it inside the tube as a sleeve. Now your vapor is inside a copper column. This make cleaning pretty easy as well. I do the same thing for the inside of my SS boilers and make a copper sleeve for them. You could just pack the column with copper scrubbies and put some scrap copper in the boiler and call it a day, which is probably easier if you want copper.

Another advantage to 13 over 8 gallons is for when doing ferments and needing to heat water. You can do batches 50% bigger with a larger boiler as you can heat up more water at a time.

You mention right now you are only doing sugar washes and nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind you may want to later do grains for whiskey or make brandy or other spirits as well. This "hobby" grows on you. So at least keep this possibility in mind.

With that said, there is nothing wrong with an 8 gallon boiler. In reality it's twice as good as the 5 gallon stove top boiler I typically use as I can only fill it roughly 3 to 3.5 gallons. But every time I run it I wish it was 2 to 3 times bigger. Each step up in boiler size (within reason) makes cuts easier, makes for a better product as well as once you "dial in" the system it can run longer as you have more alcohol available in the boiler. You get longer/better hearts cuts generally speaking.

[The Baker]

Where is 'the GTA?'

Geoff (in Australia)

[zed255]

Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada

[navan4]

Hope you don't mind me responding with a bit of banter. Just trying to make sure you make an informed decision and don't have regrets later because you didn't think of something.

You can run either 8 or 13 gallon on the induction stove if you really want to do that. I don't think there is much difference in height with them (check specs). Something to check on is clearance height. Take a measurement from the top of the stove to the ceiling and make sure you have proper clearance for the boiler and head/column. It would suck to not quite fit! You can get columns of different heights if this is a problem.

That's my problem at the moment. I've got reflux stills but have to run them in my unattached garage which has no water or heat/cooling so it's limits the times of the year I'll run them and they are propane so I don't want to bring them inside. Thus I run my smaller pot still in my basement on a gas stove next to the sink (also where I do ferments). Low ceilings keep me from running reflux this way so I'm going electric on my current in the works build and running at "floor height" to gain the height I need for a proper column height. If you build the controller yourself you can convert to electric for $50ish which might be something to consider. Can always be done later as well.

Since this would be a modular still you could remove the bottom "column" sanitary spool and replace it with a home made copper column or pick one up such as $65 including shipping https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3284424 ... 6e01d777ad
or you could do what I do and just pick up a piece of flat copper sheeting, cut it length wise to tube length and cut the width to the circumference of the tube. Wrap it around the outside of the tube to shape it, then stuff it inside the tube as a sleeve. Now your vapor is inside a copper column. This make cleaning pretty easy as well. I do the same thing for the inside of my SS boilers and make a copper sleeve for them. You could just pack the column with copper scrubbies and put some scrap copper in the boiler and call it a day, which is probably easier if you want copper.

Another advantage to 13 over 8 gallons is for when doing ferments and needing to heat water. You can do batches 50% bigger with a larger boiler as you can heat up more water at a time.

You mention right now you are only doing sugar washes and nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind you may want to later do grains for whiskey or make brandy or other spirits as well. This "hobby" grows on you. So at least keep this possibility in mind.

With that said, there is nothing wrong with an 8 gallon boiler. In reality it's twice as good as the 5 gallon stove top boiler I typically use as I can only fill it roughly 3 to 3.5 gallons. But every time I run it I wish it was 2 to 3 times bigger. Each step up in boiler size (within reason) makes cuts easier, makes for a better product as well as once you "dial in" the system it can run longer as you have more alcohol available in the boiler. You get longer/better hearts cuts generally speaking.

I do agree very much with all your inputs, but the still if purchased with an all ss column would be a mere $ 100.00 cdn more in my purchase compared to the chinese column and knowing that this company has high quality products it now seems that it's a choice of going for Canada first, just like many will chose USA first in your country and I understand and agree with this. Also it's a freeking COPPER column, I can't dismiss this emotional factor!

[navan4]

Take a measurement from the top of the stove to the ceiling and make sure you have proper clearance for the boiler and head/column. It would suck to not quite fit! You can get columns of different heights if this is a problem.

I have 61" available and the still in the link I sent you is 59" total. So impossible to go bigger without relocating in basement, not impossible, but much less practical.

[navan4]

Hope you don't mind me responding with a bit of banter. Just trying to make sure you make an informed decision and don't have regrets later because you didn't think of something.

Again, I appreciate very much your input, but in my specific case, it opens up a can of worms now that I think about. Since I have a height restriction this means in the column from China, I could only insert a maximum of 4 5" copper mesh rolls, because of the dephlegmator that is used, but with the other column, that maybe is imported from China also, it has a water jacket, thus meaning I could insert a maximum of 7 5" copper mesh rolls, if I decide to go that route. Both are modular, since I can modify both, of course if I relocate it to the basement, because of my height restriction of 62" on stove and this still is 59" tall, the column is 36", I could even add a different dephlegmator, if so I chose to do so.
Now the question is, do I go with copper, save some dough and go ss, or cheap it out for another $ 100.00 cdn ($ 75.00 usd) and go chinese?

[cayars]

it has a water jacket, thus meaning I could insert a maximum of 7 5" copper mesh rolls,

It doesn't say the column height but lists the entire still as 59 inches tall and the boiler as 23" tall leaving 36" as the total column height. The bottom sanitary spool is likely 2/3 of that or 24". So you'll be able to pack it with 4 or 5 rolls. They have the column listed https://www.northstills.com/product/all ... lux-tower/ without specs but it's pretty easy to eye ball the portion below the deflag as 2/3 the length.

You can loosely pack the deflag with copper but when done it's not acting as a "plate" count as you might be thinking. This creates more cooling surface. Making the mesh like a heatsink with more contact area. It's essentially closing in more to the efficiency of the shotgun condenser by having more contact area. It helps to get the fluid to drop back in the middle of the tube vs just running down the outside walls.
This thread might help with that type of info: viewtopic.php?t=25732

There are some useful tips in that thread you might pick up on.

Another option would be SET B from https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3292402 ... 8b16c84528
That would give you a 35.5" column sitting on the 23" boiler for a total height of 58.5". You would then have 600mm of column vs the 500mm on the other head gaining an additional 3.6" for packing. Essentially the same size column for packing as #1 in op post.

Distillex is pretty flexible and wil do a custom column if requested. For example you could get them to drop the bottom SS spool and replace it with a 4" to 2" copper cone. This would work fine if you purchase the boiler with the 4" ferrule. They sell copper shotgun condensers as well and replace SS with copper by request for difference in cost.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3297254 ... b201603_53

So just keep those things in mind as you can "custom" up your still a bit.

Option Anxiety

[navan4]

You can loosely pack the deflag with copper but when done it's not acting as a "plate" count as you might be thinking. This creates more cooling surface. Making the mesh like a heatsink with more contact area. It's essentially closing in more to the efficiency of the shotgun condenser by having more contact area. It helps to get the fluid to drop back in the middle of the tube vs just running down the outside walls.
This thread might help with that type of info: viewtopic.php?t=25732

There are some useful tips in that thread you might pick up on.

Yes I did already read that, that's why I indicating the "up to 7 rolls" because I would like to use the centering ring in a experiment to compare with using just 4 without vs 7 with centering ring and how this would affect take off rate, ABV% and quality of produce.

Another option would be SET B from https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3292402 ... 8b16c84528
That would give you a 35.5" column sitting on the 23" boiler for a total height of 58.5". You would then have 600mm of column vs the 500mm on the other head gaining an additional 3.6" for packing. Essentially the same size column for packing as #1 in op post.

Distillex is pretty flexible and wil do a custom column if requested. For example you could get them to drop the bottom SS spool and replace it with a 4" to 2" copper cone. This would work fine if you purchase the boiler with the 4" ferrule. They sell copper shotgun condensers as well and replace SS with copper by request for difference in cost.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3297254 ... b201603_53

So just keep those things in mind as you can "custom" up your still a bit.

Option Anxiety

Well it's good to see that they're flexible for swapping copper in the column part, but the price goes up fast when this is done.
They also advertise a very good price, but take a cut on the freight, this seems more and more common for this type of product exported from China.

[cayars]

Well yea, because copper costs 2 to 3 times more than SS parts.
For example 300 mm copper Sanitary spool $57 with free shipping.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3284502 ... f1b63c097d
SS Version with free shipping is $27.60 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3281941 ... 25490d918f

Same SS pipe sold in the US will be in the $32 to $37 range plus shipping.

Anyway, it sounds like you're pretty well informed, doing some reading and likely have made a decision or leaning in a particular direction. Let us know what you end up getting.

Best of luck!

[Durhommer]

man do your self a favor if you have 900 bucks to throw away look up dad 300 ccvm build and replicate if you have building skill if not mile high has a similar KIT with controller and extra goodies runn ng an 8 gallon boiler for 800