Using Backset

[OldSpottsford]

How much backset should I add to a six-gallon bourbon mash and when should I add it, before mashing or after, before pitching?

Thanks for your advice.

Old Spottsford

[mash rookie]

After mashing. Before pitching. Single adds to AG mash will help it work off like a rocket. If continuing with multiple generations backset can become too acidic and slow fermentation.

[OldSpottsford]

Great, thanks. Can you elaborate a bit on "single adds to AG mash", not sure what you mean here?

[mash rookie]

Great, thanks. Can you elaborate a bit on "single adds to AG mash", not sure what you mean here?

Most yeasts like a slightly acidic environment. An all grain mash is sweet and will benefit from a little backset as it is typically acidic.

Commonly used with the UJSSM recipe that is a continuing fermentation cycle sugar head, backset can become too acidic quickly and need PH adjustment.

Good luck.
MR

[OldSpottsford]

Got it, MR, thanks. How much for five gallons of wash - 1/2 gal.?

[stillin]

Minimum 25% for a sour mash whiskey as UJ says. .25x5= 1.25 gals. minimum. I alternate from 1.25 to 2 gals for a 6 gal wash. After 5 gens I clean buckets and start over with fresh corn, yeast and backseat from previous runs. That's just me, to each his own.

[OldSpottsford]

Never realized it took that much. Real helpful, thanks!

[CuWhistle]

Never realized it took that much. Real helpful, thanks!

Up to 25% at first or if you are only doing a couple of generations. After a few times you can use less as it drops the pH too far. As already explained you either need to adjust pH with a buffer or just use less backset in later generations.

I was a bit confused by this and kept using 25% until recently when I became aware that it is really used for pH control more so than flavour. I started to have a little trouble with acidity and slow fermentation so, after consulting here, just started to use less rather than fluff around with buffer.

For a 6 gallon wash just dropping a couple of egg shells in will raise pH quite effectively I found, but I'm doing larger amounts now and don't eat that many eggs. Dry eggshells are apparently 95% CaCO3. Shell grit from the pet store would also work quite well if you don't want to use straight chemical buffer.

[stillin]

I never run more than 5 gens and have never had a problem with ph but ferment does start to slow slightly about the 4th gen so if I carried it any further I would most certainly have to make a ph adjustment. But ain't never carried it no further so its all good!

[UtahViking]

On my recent rum run by the 3rd gen I was worried that it was getting to acidic so I threw in some bicarb. However lacking test strips I think I overdid it and the ferment stalled. The end product still came out great just a little lower abv than I had planned.

Long story short its worth investing in some test strips to keep everything happy

[Dnderhead]

" I threw in some bicarb"
if it was sodium bicarb, yeast don't like that either ,that is the sodium part.
most times you can git away with some but if to much it can slow or stall.
sodium in yeast bread works as a "regulator" that is it slows the yeast and the yeast
produce small "burps" instead of large "burps" thus you have smaller holes in the bread.
you don't have to worry about holes in your wash/mash so don't put it in there.

[UtahViking]

" I threw in some bicarb"
if it was sodium bicarb, yeast don't like that either ,that is the sodium part.
most times you can git away with some but if to much it can slow or stall.
sodium in yeast bread works as a "regulator" that is it slows the yeast and the yeast
produce small "burps" instead of large "burps" thus you have smaller holes in the bread.
you don't have to worry about holes in your wash/mash so don't put it in there.

Yeah I knew it wasn't the best choice but it was all I had in my moment of need and I did use to much and it slowed/stalled. Luckily it fermented out pretty well anyway and I got a pretty good product still.

[Jimbo]

Not sure why folks here are saying its only for the yeast, and to add after mashing. Bourbon is done as a sourmash for a reason. And its called sourmash because its a sour mash. Beta amylase enzymes like 5.2-5.6 pH. Water is 7. And while 100% malt can usually lower the pH enough for single malts, if you have good water, corn cannot. So your conversion will suffer with corn recipes (Bourbon) if you dont sour the MASH.

[Jimbo]

As far as how much, im getting better conversion with 20% than 10%. No pH meter, so pure experimentation. Backset is some funky ass interesting flavorful stuff. The Rum heads LOVE the shit, call it dunder, and let it 'grow' in warm 'dunderpits' for all manner of oddities to thrive in. Thats more hard core than I can swing, yet, but in general, that backset from your AG stripper run is loaded with flavor and the acid you need to sour up your bourbon mash. Good stuff that.

[Hillbillyrecordings]

Do I heat the backset?

[Hillbillyrecordings]

I'm doing a 45 gallon batch and my still holds 15 gallons . Could I do a 10 gallon stripping run save the backset and add it back to my fermenter with a little sugar maybe 5 lbs. Or so then in a week or so will it be a sourmash.

[8Ball]

Do I heat the backset?

Use the google search:
app.php/googlesearch?cx=012980085383122 ... mit=Search

[jonnys_spirit]

Backset Bourbon mashing get's a particular nasty thick and stinky after numerous multiple generations and I rather enjoy the product it produces. I've been known to pH buffer it up with potassium hydroxide then just top off my 16g boiler after a strip run with about 4 gallons of water and boil that for next mash-in which is right away. This is closer to 65-75% backset but who ever said anything about following all the rules in the kitchen? SOmetimes I'll wait to buffer it up so the corn get's a good hot AF soaking in some nicely acidic backset then adjust pH for malts/enzymes and pitch yeasties when about 90*F.

Also add some backset into the spirit run that I've let sit around and fester for the strips.

Cheers!
-jonny

[pope]

It was said earlier in this thread that backset is added for ph and not flavor, I'd argue those two are well-linked, as the lower ph is related to a higher concentration of acids, which are flavor components and furthermore will esterify into other flavor components (esters) during distillation. So you're lowering pH and building flavor at the same time. Plus if there is any residual buffering agent in the previous wash, you might even be carrying over an acidic but buffered solution which can help keep the next ferment from having a ph crash too.

[cayars]

Not sure why folks here are saying its only for the yeast, and to add after mashing. Bourbon is done as a sourmash for a reason. And its called sourmash because its a sour mash. Beta amylase enzymes like 5.2-5.6 pH. Water is 7. And while 100% malt can usually lower the pH enough for single malts, if you have good water, corn cannot. So your conversion will suffer with corn recipes (Bourbon) if you dont sour the MASH.

And Beta Enzymes like the pH lower yet. So you add enough backset to drop the pH for the alpha enzymes, then likely add more backset to get the desired pH for the Beta Enzymes.

How much you use depends on what your pH reading is.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

How does pH effect gelatinization?

I'm starting to suspect that what we call "souring" is actually supposed to be something else. Like letting the corn beer sour for a bit before pitching yeast or starting off a new batch with a bit of wash from the previous batch.

[still_stirrin]

How does pH effect gelatinization?

Some enzymes, like the SebStar HTL require some hydrogen ions to catalyze the enzyme activity. That means, they need a certain pH. But, the amylase enzymes function best at a pH of 5.0-5.5 (slightly acidic) to convert the starches to sugars. And yeast also favor a slightly acidic environment although they will go dormant at a highly acidic pH of 3.2 or lower. Remember, the pH scale is logarithmic, not linear...so a 1.0 pH difference is 10 times more acidic or basic.

Usually, yeast metabolization (conversion of sugars to alcohol) produces hydrogen ions, thereby causing the pH to drop unless you have negative ions available, such as CO3 (carbonates) or OH (hydroxides) available to bond with the free (liberated) hydrogen ions.

I'm starting to suspect that what we call "souring" is actually supposed to be something else. Like letting the corn beer sour for a bit before pitching yeast or starting off a new batch with a bit of wash from the previous batch.

The “souring” is the development of acids within the mash. Often this is the result of bacteria. Or, in the case of “backset souring”, it is the low pH of the backset (from the boiler) added back to the fermenter. Again, the available hydrogen ions catalyzes activity within the mash and/or fermenter.
ss

p.s.- Acids from a mash are not boiled out of the boiler during distillation. For example, the boiling point of lactic acid is 251*F, well after you’ve shut down your boiler.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I meant gelatinization not sacharification.

I'm wonder how PH effects corn starches while being cooked prior to the point that enzymes are added.

[still_stirrin]

I meant gelatinization not sacharification.

I'm wonder how PH effects corn starches while being cooked prior to the point that enzymes are added.

I think I answered this question already. Go reread my answer.
ss

[still_stirrin]

Here, this is a description of gelatinization of the starch (from here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19127749):

“Starch gelatinization is associated with the disruption of granular structure causing starch molecules to disperse in water. This study was designed to examine starch granules as they were heated in water, and their resulting morphological, structural, and solubility traits. The results indicate that starch gelatinization is a more complex process than the previously suggested order-to-disorder transition. The energy absorbed by the granules facilitates the rearrangement or formation of new bonds among molecules prior to the temperatures normally associated with the melting of amylopectin crystallites during gelatinization. It is also evident that amylose plays an important role during the initial stages of corn starch gelatinization.”

Have a read of the article for a better scientific understanding.
ss

[Hillbilly Popstar]

It seems intuitive that an acid would help since we are talking about the break down of molecular structure.

But I dont know that for a fact. I'll check out the article for clues. Thanks for sharing.

I reread your answer and it really seems like all you're talking about is sacharification. Sorry if I am missing something.

[still_stirrin]

I reread your answer and it really seems like all you're talking about is sacharification. Sorry if I am missing something.

Did you read the abstract from the article I quoted above? Do...it may help you understand better.
ss

[freshwaterjellyfish]

..got to be careful here. Not all backsets are same..I doubt whisky makers are letting their backset get a layer of mold at the top.

[Bee]

How much? Depends on your water's pH & buffering capacity and what you are trying to accomplish.

I boil my backset because it sits around for a long time and gets infected.