Pure Sugar Can Juice Rum : I need your help !

[NicMada]

Hi Guys,

I need your help and your advices !
First distillations for me.

This week, i tryed my very first distillation, in order to make a pure sugar cane juice rum ( type « rhum agricole », « cachaça », « clairin », according to the area).

I am in Madagascar (I live there), so I bought some sugar cane and I :
- Cleaned well my canes with a brush in order to remove earth

- Milled my canes to make juices
- Added some special yeast for sugar cane

I did the fermentation in clean contener (12L of juice in 20L capacity contener). I put a very breathing a piece of cloth on the top of the contener to prevent external contamination and to let the gaz exchange. I’ve stirred a few times.

The fermentation was longer than expected (aproximately 3 to 4 days) : I think not enought yeast, maybe no optimal pH), but it worked. I saw the multiplication phase, and after that the fermentation.

After that, i did the distillation by doing stripping run and spirit run (3 Stripping runs for 1 spirit run).
Stripping Run : very fast, i collected everyting until 15% AVB approximately
Spirit run : very slow ( 6 hours for 5L in my boiler), goutte à goutte. I collected by parts of 100 mL in little boxes, as I read in some very instructives topic here (thank you to kiwistiller and others ! )

I cut heads and tails by smelling (and the %AVB also helped me). I Kept a heart between 80% to 65% approximately.
I add distillated water to get a 45% AVB Rum.

 I was very surprised ! the heart had no flavor . I expected to have something very flavored (flower, sugar cane, fruits …) very specific of pure juice rum but no : NOTHING. Very neutral : Vodka Type. I have nothing against Vodka , but, i want to do a pure cane juice rum.
Just a precision, there was no good fruity/flowerly aroma in head and tails.

I tryed again :same result

I Retryed again : Same result

However, during the third try, during my stripping run, i noticed that there was some good typical juice cane aroma in some bottles collected. Not all, but some. It was not execptional but I was happy : « haa i will have something good this time ! » but no, nothing after the spirit run …
For my 4th test, I tryed to do it with one very slow run  the result was not good : no aroma, no good flavor . I did it with the numerous little recipient , and my feeling is that head/earth/tail are more mixed in every recipient (and still no cane juice aroma).

Just for information, my brix rates were 18, 18, 23 and 23, and pH between 6 and 7.


End of the chapter one !

So, i want to ask you some question, and have your advices, remarks, experience sharing, … please
Since my fermentations seem to be OK. Here are my questions :

- Is the lack of aroma due to the raw material? (lack of maturity of the canes for example, who have developed sugar but not yet the aromas). They said the cane have more than one year old age.

- The still I use (I got a s***t, I admit) is it detrimental to my goals to make a good pure juice rum ? If yes, why ?

- On my still, what is actually the "decanter"? should I keep what's inside in my first few passes?)

- Is my distillation method correct? What advice do you have for me ?

Thank you all , and of course, every constructive remarks, tips, advice are very welcome !

Bye

Nic

[Yummyrum]

I haven’t done cane juice so I can’t comment why you are not getting what you are looking for .
But your methodology seems generically correct . I can only guess that perhaps you might want to try adding more of the late heads into your mix . .

I’d love to see some pics of your cane crusher . I hot a stand of it growing in the back yard and I don’t know how to get the juice out .

PS ..... you’re a braver man than me . That collection jar is way to close to the gas for my liking . Good thing you are doing it in a tiled bathroom .

Having cracked concrete with a gas burner , can I suggest you put a sheet of cement sheet or something under your burner to protect your tiles .

Sorry nothing constructive to say .

[SaltyStaves]

I've not done pure cane juice, but I recently did a rum with Jaggery, which is evaporated cane juice. I found it lacked flavour too, but that was when it was first made. Each day it gets better and a few weeks later, it is starting to taste more like what I expected it should. So perhaps you aren't giving it enough time.

[NZChris]

Stripping run:

How much did you take off as foreshots?
What was the combined low wines abv?

Spirit run:

How did you go about choosing your heart cut?

[bubba]

bonjour
i sure do like the way your raw cane looks
i know nothing but i have thoughts to add, streaming into my mind. they may or may not be correct. condensed from a very short time of study on subject.
i can not make out your still system all that good but the fellows here want copper in the system , i do not see copper in your system.

in these parts it is thought to add fruity essence [or cane]or any essence to the product a +thumper+[ a secondary pot heated[driven] by the steam from the primary pot] is helpful. the Thumper /secondary should be at least 1/3 rd the size of the primary as i recall. it could be 1/2 , 3/4 .. 1/1
the input to secondary from the primary should go very near the bottom of the vessel .the out put from the secondary should be in the vapor dome/area thus to the condenser .
consider fabricating a thumper /secondary pot to add to the system.
first test : add to the secondary pot/thumper sufficient wash[fermented cane product]and low wines [product from a stripping run] to cover the down tube. run , sample : idea is more of the +essence+ will carry over .

second test: add to the secondary pot low wines from a stripping run, wash from a cane ferment AND unfermented cane product .. this should provide beaucoup [ quite a lot] of the essence of the cane to carry over to the final product.
idea is the secondary pot gently heated by the steam out put from the primary pot will carry more of the essentials over to the final product..

i might be right .. but i might be wrong

bubba
near the divide
goutte à goutte
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/di ... %A0-goutte

[NicMada]

Hello Again !

Thanks for your answers.

to Yummyrum :
Yes , you are right, my jar is to close to the fire. I will try to make a derivation system with copper. And about the tiles, at this moment, i put some water under the burner to refresh the soil each 20 min.
I tryed to add more heads, but no tast of pure cane juice rum.
I use a mill from a friend, kind of :

[media]https://french.alibaba.com/product-deta ... 1d6bWBDup0[/media]

It works well. I think they have smaller one, and cheaper than the link, of course.

So perhaps you aren't giving it enough time.

--> yes you are right, but it's too neutral , no tast at all . Last month i had the luck to visit a small distilery in Reunion Island, and i tasted the production just after the distillation : it was strong (still at 74% AVB approximatly I think), but very tasty. So i will follow your advice but i think my "no tast at all rum" won't become a good one. But i will try to see. Thank you.

Stripping run:

How much did you take off as foreshots?
What was the combined low wines abv?

Spirit run:

How did you go about choosing your heart cut?

--> I keep everything, event the foreshots during my stripping run
I was arround 40% AVB in my low wines.
--> ( i did the technique with little recipient of 100 mL during the spirit run). i chose the heart by smelling each recipient and followed advices i read here. I used also the %AVB to have an indication. And when i had a doubt, I reduced the AVB on a little sample, and drank a little bit.

thank you again for your messages guys. I remain motivated despite that, "Rum" was not done in a day

[NZChris]

40% low wines is quite high for any rum, so you have probably left good flavor in the dunder. Try running to 30% or lower.

This is roughly how I choose my cuts for rums.

Use Kiwistiller's novice guide to cuts to find the jars that are the obvious heart cut and have no faults.

Jars that don't taste great on their own are needed in the blend to capture the essence of the cane, so:

Make up a sample of the prospective blend using the obvious heart cut jars and taste it, then alternately add to the sample from jars from each end until you find the jars that are one too far.
I use a 5ml dipper made out of a bent spoon, take my time, dilute to below 40% for tasting, use a spittoon and rinse with fresh water between tastings.

[SaltyStaves]

My last rum (Jaggery) was from low wines of 27% ABV.
If my rum low wines are crystal clear, then I don't expect to make a very flavourful product from them.

[nerdybrewer]

When you dilute your low wines for the spirit run what are you using, water?

I use a very raw Panela sugar in my rum and I get lots of flavor.

If you will save some of the wash / ferment and use it to dilute your low wines and run this as your spirit run you may get better results.

When I do this I try and use about 30% - 50% of my stripping product, in other words if I have 10 gallons of low wines I add 3 to 5 gallons of fresh fermented wash to it. This is in order to add more flavor to the end product.

This is a 1.5 run, not a traditional spirit run.

Some save the dunder and put it in a pit and let it age and then add that to their ferment.
The idea behind this is to "grow" some flavors that would not normally make it in, it's kind of a chemistry experiment at that stage and will introduce other issues like controlling your PH.

So there are ways of getting more flavors from your rum, and as you study and experiment you will find things you like and things you do not like and you will make it your own.

[shadylane]

I was very surprised ! the heart had no flavor . I expected to have something very flavored (flower, sugar cane, fruits …) very specific of pure juice rum but no : NOTHING. Very neutral : Vodka Type. I have nothing against Vodka , but, i want to do a pure cane juice rum.
Just a precision, there was no good fruity/flowerly aroma in head and tails.

Wider cut's might help but
Rum Agricole doesn't have the molasses flavor many of us expect

[Saltbush Bill]

From my experience Sugarcane juice doesnt have much flavour, its just sweet n sticky to drink. Around these parts if you buy it fresh they often add a bit of ginger juice to it so that it does have some taste.
In short I cant see why it would result in a spirit with much flavour.
Using a combination of most of the tricks mentioned so far in this thread should help a little.

[NZChris]

You can boost the flavor a bit by not including a couple of the most tasteless middle hearts jars in the final blend.

[8Ball]

My two cents: keep 20 percent fermented wash in reserve, strip the rest out until it gets cloudy and 5% abv. Dilute your low wines with the reserve wash and get it between 30-40% maximum. Slow spirit run, collect hearts from 78% to 58% abv, air out a day or so, age on used oak at 65% for at least 6 months and longer in a cask or in glass. Reuse dunder, heads and tails in next runs. Check your pH during ferments, try to get it around 5.0 to start and throw in some clean crushed shells. Use bread yeast. Good luck!

[still_stirrin]

You can boost the flavor a bit by not including a couple of the most tasteless middle hearts jars in the final blend.

Interesting Chris.

This would allow a “top shelf white” rum in addition to a fuller flavored amber “consumer’s” rum, after aging on wood.

I like this notion. Thanks.
ss

[Hillbilly Popstar]

If it were me, I would run way deeper during the stripping runs.
Seems you're leaving alot of rum ouls in the still.

Also. If you have room in the boiler, try and add a bit more to the boiler for your first two strips, then add those low wines to the remaining wash, then spirit run that.

If it's really flavor youre after, rhum agricole might be too much of a lighter rum than what you're looking for.
Maybe you could try and add just a half gallon of black strap molasses to your ferment. That'll definitely get you some flavors.

[pope]

Different yeast types can produce vastly different flavors and aromas, it could be something to try to get a more flavorful result. What kind of yeast did you use?

[Corsaire]

I believe rhum agricole and cachaca is usually made with the yeast that's on the cane. I'll have to check on that though, I might be wrong.
I'd strip deeper as well. I believe you've left a lot of flavor and some alcohol in your stillage.
I love a good agricole, and I prefer young over aged but unfortunately I'm in the wrong climate to help you out.
Good luck!

[Jlanius]

I live in sugarcane country (south louisiana) and have been looking for some ideas on a sugarcane juice rum. Right now I am working on Pugirum, but a cane juice run is next. You said you had a long fermentation time. Look into Pugi's "yeast bomb." It's basically a yeast nutrient. My fermentation took off practically immediately. Im talking within a few minutes. also read his notes on "Rum oils." He runs his hearts down to about 50%ABV. Discard 50% to 40%, then collect 40% to 20%. This is what he calls the rum oils. Always collect from a spirit run and run them in your next spirit run. I Feel like this would make an excellent rum, and am excited to try it as soon as I have an empty fermentation bucket.

[Jlanius]

also what was your yield from each stalk, and what was your method of juice extraction? I have an idea, I'm going to grind it all up in my juicer which will extract some juice, then run the rest of the pulp through my cheese press to extract the rest.

[NZChris]

In my experience, juicing has to be done quickly and efficiently so that there is little time for the crushed bagasse to flavor the juice. I don't know what the science is, maybe it's to do with oxidation, but doing approximately what you are suggesting has gotten me the nastiest rum I've ever made. Fours years later, one of them has improved a bit, but not so much I would let a visitor taste it.

[Saltbush Bill]

PS ..... you’re a braver man than me . That collection jar is way to close to the gas for my liking

Looking at that photo at the top of the thread, Gotta agree with Yummy, that thing is just plain out dangerous like that. You will only ever want to experience one still fire and you wont be back for seconds in a hurry. Id be changing things before going any further.

[Jlanius]

so after you crushed my spirit (see what I did there) for what I thought was an excellent idea, I had another idea pop up. Running it through a pasta maker. A quick googling pulled up a guy that did that with some success. I guess time will tell

[MichiganCornhusker]

I envy your access to fresh sugar cane, I would like to experiment with fresh cane juice!

I have made rum with panela from Sugar Daddy. I believe it's raw cane juice boiled down to a point where they can press it into dried cakes.
I get a lot of great flavor from it. I like to do a single run with it, or maybe a run through a thumper for a 1.5 run, but I didn't like a true strip/spirit run combo.

Maybe there are flavors created by boiling the sugar cane juice down to make a dried form? Some Maillard reactions? I suppose it might be a bit like making caramel? Not sure, but I do know that the panela I've been using makes a Very flavorful rum.

Perhaps you could try boiling some of your juice down to a syrup and trying that. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Corsaire]

I saw a street vendor who used a roller press to crush his cane. Like some kind of roller mill. It was a roller press in which you put a gradual bend in pipe, the kind that you feed the pipe through instead of the hydraulic presses that leaves the pipe static and pushes. Don't know the english word for it, I hope it makes sense.

You might find one or rig a lighter duty model up.

[nerdybrewer]

I envy your access to fresh sugar cane, I would like to experiment with fresh cane juice!

I have made rum with panela from Sugar Daddy. I believe it's raw cane juice boiled down to a point where they can press it into dried cakes.
I get a lot of great flavor from it. I like to do a single run with it, or maybe a run through a thumper for a 1.5 run, but I didn't like a true strip/spirit run combo.

Maybe there are flavors created by boiling the sugar cane juice down to make a dried form? Some Maillard reactions? I suppose it might be a bit like making caramel? Not sure, but I do know that the panela I've been using makes a Very flavorful rum.

Perhaps you could try boiling some of your juice down to a syrup and trying that. Good luck and keep us posted.

X2 on Sugar Daddy's Panela. Makes awesome rum. There is a video of how they process their cane somewhere on this site...

[NZChris]

I sampled my cane yesterday. Brix is 17 and it would make a beautiful summer drink with a squeeze of lime and maybe some ginger, but without a decent press it's a battle to get anything out of it. I have boiled a crop down into treacle, but because I used the same method of getting the juice that Jlanius was suggesting, the treacle had the nasty bagasse flavor that I don't like.

You can buy sugar cane juicers and, if you live in sugar cane country, you might be able to find a juicer to hire, or someone who is willing to juice your cane for you.

[redz242]

I envy your access to fresh sugar cane, I would like to experiment with fresh cane juice!

I have made rum with panela from Sugar Daddy. I believe it's raw cane juice boiled down to a point where they can press it into dried cakes.
I get a lot of great flavor from it. I like to do a single run with it, or maybe a run through a thumper for a 1.5 run, but I didn't like a true strip/spirit run combo.

Maybe there are flavors created by boiling the sugar cane juice down to make a dried form? Some Maillard reactions? I suppose it might be a bit like making caramel? Not sure, but I do know that the panela I've been using makes a Very flavorful rum.

Perhaps you could try boiling some of your juice down to a syrup and trying that. Good luck and keep us posted.

Panela. Makes awesome rum.

+1000 my oak of choice for this is Hungarian.

[LWTCS]

I envy your access to fresh sugar cane, I would like to experiment with fresh cane juice!

I have made rum with panela from Sugar Daddy. I believe it's raw cane juice boiled down to a point where they can press it into dried cakes.
I get a lot of great flavor from it. I like to do a single run with it, or maybe a run through a thumper for a 1.5 run, but I didn't like a true strip/spirit run combo.

Maybe there are flavors created by boiling the sugar cane juice down to make a dried form? Some Maillard reactions? I suppose it might be a bit like making caramel? Not sure, but I do know that the panela I've been using makes a Very flavorful rum.

Perhaps you could try boiling some of your juice down to a syrup and trying that. Good luck and keep us posted.

X2 on Sugar Daddy's Panela. Makes awesome rum. There is a video of how they process their cane somewhere on this site...

It is here:

[Bolverk]

I think on your next go, pull out a gallon or two of the cane juice and toss in a few unwashed cane bullets, this will be the starter for you dunder pit. Once it's matured and has a fruity/floral smell add some of that (say 10%) to a new batch.

[jonnys_spirit]

I made a sorghum agricole a couple seasons ago - similar idea but different cane. It was from fresh pressed sorghum cane juice. Didn’t really do anything special that I remember and it did start fermenting by itself. I did strip to around 0%abv off the spout to get all the alcohol and maybe a bit further - then spirit ran it into about 20 or so fractions/jars and then chose my cuts. It’s very flavorful so not sure how to help with that issue. We’re close to harvest season here. Maybe i’ll do it again next year.

Cheers,
jonny