Baking soda in mash?

[BamaBill]

Hey guys, I have been running a sweet potato mash that takes forever (like 3 weeks) to get from 1.08 to 1.02 or 1.03 where it eventually stalls and I run it. I use flieschmans bread yeast. I've been going through this same process for two years because I actually love what I've been making.
I would like to increase yield and speed up fermentation to stock up for winter. I bought a digital pH meter and started mash yesterday. The mash was around 4.9 last night and tonight it was at 3.8 and fizzing pretty good. I think the pH drops have been causing my stalled fermentations.
So, I don't have calcium carbonate, oyster shell or anything else listed: (Remedy: Raise the pH by adding calcium carbonate, potassium carbonate, sodium carbonate, or 5.2 pH stabilizer. to increase pH.) But, I do have baking soda handy. I have read and picked around but cannot find anything about pros or cons of using baking soda in a mash to increase pH. I have read that 1 teaspoon to 10 gallons would be a good starting point for
increasing pH in an aquarium. It's also used to neautralize water in pools and its used in baking.
Am missing something as to why I can't find mention of it being used to neutralize an acidic mash?

[Expat]

Yeah 3.8 is really acidic. You probably wanting to aim for around 5.

Sodium bicarbonate isn't recommend because it adds salt(sodium) to the wash which the yeasties don't particularly like.

[NZChris]

Any form of calcium carbonate will do. Sea shells, egg shells, marble ...

[BamaBill]

Yeah 3.8 is really acidic. You probably wanting to aim for around 5.

Sodium bicarbonate isn't recommend because it adds salt(sodium) to the wash which the yeasties don't particularly like.

Thanks for the feedback, I was wondering why it wasn't suggested.

[BamaBill]

Any form of calcium carbonate will do. Sea shells, egg shells, marble ...

Thanks NZChris.

[rubelstrudel]

Any garden shop in your neighbourhood will have white marble gravel for decorative use in suitable packs. Get the smaller pieces, they work best.
If you live close to the sea, go to the beach and pick white, sun-bleached shells. Remember to boil them first to get rid of organic remains.
Powdered marble / calcium carbonate work best. If you can order online, do that.

[NZChris]

Shells don't have to be white and sun bleached, even fresh land snail shells will do if you have nothing else, just give them a boil first. My latest rum ferment is buffered by what is left of a giant clam shell that was used as an ashtray from the sixties to the nineties.

Whole shell & chunks of marble is better than powdered as it behaves more like a buffer and is less likely to over-correct your pH if you use too much.

[rubelstrudel]

Doesn't really matter what form the Calcium Carbonate is, in a CO2 - CaCO3 equilibrium you will end up about pH 5.7.
The difference is how fast the reaction happens, and how much unused raw material you will be able to reuse.

Rocks dissolves slower than shells and shells dissolve slower than powder, its all about surface/volume ratio.
If you are having a rapidly souring mash, powder will remedy that faster than rocks,
but recovering unused CC powder is not practical, unlike rocks that are infinitely recoverable.

[BamaBill]

I'd like to thank you guys for sharing the knowledge, I was apprehensive about asking. My next question was already answered by rubelstrudel in how long the rocks last.
Thanks guys

[NZChris]

Just be careful what you take away from forums. I've never seen any evidence that Calcium Carbonate buffers at 5.7 and I suspect that that number is a product of Chinese Whispers more than science.

[bluefish_dist]

Personally I aim to be above 4.0 for sugar washes. I don't try to hold them at 5. I would try and buy some cc on line. It really does work well and you can buffer ahead of time by using citric acid and cc. I am pretty sure that is all that is in 5.0.

To buffer, add some citric acid and then adjust back to 5.2 with cc. The extra acidity allows more cc to dissolve increasing the buffering capacity.

[StillerBoy]

it really does work well and you can buffer ahead of time by using citric acid and cc. I am pretty sure that is all that is in 5.0.

To buffer, add some citric acid and then adjust back to 5.2 with cc. The extra acidity allows more cc to dissolve increasing the buffering capacity.

I can attest to what bluefish has stated.. and it works both for sugar shine and grain mash.. and it works even better on rum wash..

For both shine and grains, I use citric acid to lower the ph to about 4.6, then bring it back to above 5 with calcium carbonate, and you will need just a small adjustment after the first 12 hrs.. as for rum, rum is acidic already, so you raise back to above 5 and it will be within that range throughout the fermentation..

Mars

[bluefish_dist]

The reason it works better on rum is molasses has calcium in it. If you want the same results on your other washes, add more of both cc and citric.

[BamaBill]

I should have invested in a meter two years ago. Now that I have a meter, here is what I have learned my mash is doing:
Pitch day pH of 4.9
24 hours, pH 3.8 specific gravity 1.080, adjusted to 4.9
48 hours, pH 4.3
72 hours (today) pH is 3.6 and specific gravity 1.070

I'll adjust the pH this afternoon with lime.

[BamaBill]

Three 14oz cups of powdered lime brought the pH up to 4.6 last night. Today my pH is at 5.2 and my specific gravity dropped from 1.070 to 1.065 overnight.
Thanks guys for the help.

[Deplorable]

I found this thread searching for a resolution to the same issue. My Gerber wash stalled, and I checked the PH at 3.5, I almost added in Baking soda, but questioned the sodium. Glad I didn't add it before I searched here. Here is my question, Its sunday and about everything around me is closed, but Ive got TUMS on hand which the active ingredient in each tablet is 750mg of CC, also contains the following: Corn Starch, Dextrose, Magnesium Stearate, Maltodextrin, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Sorbitol, Sucrose, Talc. Can this be used, or head out tomorrow to find a source of CC?
BamaBill above mentions powdered lime. is that the lime you buy in the gardening section for your soil amendments?

[NZChris]

Calcium hydroxide, slaked lime, hydrated lime, builders lime, plus other names, works much better than garden lime, Calcium carbonate. I get it at my local building supplies store.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55813#p7314166

[Deplorable]

Calcium hydroxide, slaked lime, builders lime, plus other names, works much better than garden lime, Calcium carbonate. I get it at my local building supplies store.

Appreciate the resonse NZChris

Calcium is the key here then I take it? Or am I still not getting something fundamental? Here's what I am taking away in my searches on this subject:
Any source of calcium for the acidic wash to consume is good, but stay away from things that Yeast doenst like, such as sodium.
Adjusting a crashed PH with powdered calcium hydroxide, calcium cabonate, slake lime etc, will correct the PH, but its better to ensure the wash has a source of sustainable calcium such as oyster shell or marble to prevent the crash to begin with. (keep the sugar wash between 4 and 5).
I read in another thread here, that lead me to assume baking soda is more of a concern in a long term such as a SF or USSJM dut tot he accumulation of sodium in the trub. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54525

FWIW, this Gerber Wash is for the sacc run on a new still so its just gonna get poured on the weeds after distilling. But the knowlege gained here is going to help me when I put down a wash of SF so Im trying to learn as much as I can on this ferment. Its more finiky than fermenting an AG wort for making beer.

[Thebigbrewbowski]

Ive used baking soda many times with no ill effects, works great in a pinch for me. Not sure how much people are adding to have the salt affect the yeast but its never done anything to my ferment time, abv or flavour.

[NZChris]

Calcium hydroxide, slaked lime, builders lime, plus other names, works much better than garden lime, Calcium carbonate. I get it at my local building supplies store.

Appreciate the resonse NZChris

Calcium is the key here then I take it?

No.

Or am I still not getting something fundamental?

Yes.

Here's what I am taking away in my searches on this subject:
Any source of calcium for the acidic wash to consume is good, but stay away from things that Yeast doenst like, such as sodium.
Adjusting a crashed PH with powdered calcium hydroxide, calcium cabonate, slake lime etc, will correct the PH,

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55813#p7314166

... but its better to ensure the wash has a source of sustainable calcium such as oyster shell or marble to prevent the crash to begin with. (keep the sugar wash between 4 and 5).

Caclium Carbonate can act as a buffer if you don't use it finely ground or in excessive quantities. Large shells are reasonably safe because they have a smaller ratio of surface area to volume than powdered & crushed and are less likely to overshoot and wreck your wash if you're not watching or forget to pull them out when the ferment finishes. That said, if you don't have a history of problems, there is no need to use CC in any form.

[Deplorable]

Caclium Carbonate can act as a buffer if you don't use it finely ground or in excessive quantities. Large shells are reasonably safe because they have a smaller ratio of surface area to volume than powdered & crushed and are less likely to overshoot and wreck your wash if you're not watching or forget to pull them out when the ferment finishes. That said, if you don't have a history of problems, there is no need to use CC in any form.

Thanks. I guess I need to understand what you mean by

act as a buffer if you don't use it finely ground or in excessive quantities

Keeps the PH stable through out the ferment?

Also,

overshoot and wreck your wash if you're not watching

Can you explain what you mean here, or point me to a thread that does? because in what Ive read so far, my limited understanding was that the wash would only consume what it needed, and the PH would stabilize.
I've got a long way to go to better understand how the yeast reacts in a sugar wash compared to an AG.

I really appreciate the help here.
Sometimes its like drinking from a fire hose trying to absorb all the information, while I filter through the comments in a thread to try to get the information I'm seeking. The search tool has been helpful for me in limiting the number of questions I have, but sometimes it just drives more. LOL

[Deplorable]

Ive used baking soda many times with no ill effects, works great in a pinch for me. Not sure how much people are adding to have the salt affect the yeast but its never done anything to my ferment time, abv or flavour.

Based on my (questionable) calculations, Id have to add about 1/3rd cup to raise the PH from 3.5 to 4.5 in a 6 gallon wash. (about a TBS/gallon)

[NZChris]

Calcium carbonate doesn't actually buffer at a pH you want, even though you might be able to find many posts that say it does, but it can be used to emulate a buffer as long as you don't do something stupid like overdose it or leave it in after the ferment finishes and not run it soon enough. Used incorrectly, it is quite capable of pushing the pH over 8 and creating some really nasty smells that would have you kicking the can over.

Suspending shell grit in a bag is much safer than chucking it into the can and means you can easily remove it if you need to.

[bluefish_dist]

When adding CC, add small amounts. I used to add about 1 cup per 100 gallons. Doesn’t take much. Also it acts like mentos in coke. So be careful and let it degas before adding more. I would add 1/2 cup at a time, slowly, then wait before adding more. More than once I added too much Or too fast and over flowed.

Chris is Correct cc doesnt buffer, but you can build a buffer at the beginning by adding extra acid and CC to increase the amount of calcium dissolved in the water. Once it’s going, it’s just used to adjust. Personally I found on larger washes that shells didn’t have enough surface area to react fast enough to save a crash. Never checked on small washes with a meter.

[Thebigbrewbowski]

Ive used baking soda many times with no ill effects, works great in a pinch for me. Not sure how much people are adding to have the salt affect the yeast but its never done anything to my ferment time, abv or flavour.

Based on my (questionable) calculations, Id have to add about 1/3rd cup to raise the PH from 3.5 to 4.5 in a 6 gallon wash. (about a TBS/gallon)

not sure what youre calculating, but Ive taken a ph of below 3.7ish and brought it to around 5.3 with just a couple teaspoons. Ive never measured just pour a bit, stir and wait then pour more if needed. Not saying this is the best way obviously there are better methods but its better then not adjusting the PH IMO. I didnt interview the yeast so cant say if it made them have a bad day, likker always turns out great either way.

You can also put baking soda in the oven at 200 degrees F for around an hour and mix that into solution and it will increase PH up with less baking soda. Used to do this all the time when I had a reef tank.

[Deplorable]

I took a qt of water, and added lemon juice to bring the PH to 3.5, then added baking soda a 1/8 tsp at a time stirred until disolved, and remeasured. continued this process until the PH was 4.5, and multiplied the amount of baking soda to match 6 gallons of wash. Like I said, questionable, because I dont know what I dont know. I dont know how long it takes for the acidic soulution to fully stabilize after the Baking soda has been added, so I likely should have waited longer before doses.
In the mean time, my wash is sitting in the fermentor at 3.5 while I wait for some CC. I rekon, since this is just a sacc run, I can add a couple of tsp of soda and see what the outcome is. I'm not drining it anyway...

[Tnt]

I know this is an old thread but in case this is useful to someone…

Making an all corn mash, I was having difficulty converting starch using alpha amylase. I had held the temperature around 180 F for about 4 hours. Then dropped the temp to add the alpha amylase. Tried keeping the temp around 145F but wasn’t getting much conversion. I stopped the process and filtered out the corn. That left me 9.5 gallons of liquid. The plan was to reheat the liquid to 180 to pasturize again just because of the length of time I was in the range of 145 F and below. I measured the Ph at 4.2. I added 6 tsp of baking soda (heaping a little bit) and that raised the Ph to 5.6. I’m waiting now to get to 180F then drop it to 145 F and add more alpha amylase to see if the conversion improves. I used baking soda because that is what I have here on a Saturday night. If that doesn’t work, I’m pitching this batch.

My main point for this discussion is that 6 tsp of backing soda (heaping a little) raised the Ph of 9.5 gallons of liquid from 4.2 to 5.6.