Anyone using a conical fermenter as a boiler? I have one of these jacketed fermenters:
At first I was considering it's usefulness as a boiler. Running a heating element in the bottom port is done by some to sanitize before fermentation and should work configured like that.
I blame this forum for the next idea. After reading about bain maries, double boilers, steam injection, and etc. here on HD I tried a searches on google for those and even jacketed boiler. Well, jacketed boiler got lots of hits for jacketed conicals which got me thinking.... I had a conversation with a friend about pushing steam into the jacket instead of glycol. He had some caution about how they are constructed and welded internally but the one I have should handle steam if not done under pressure. Makes me wonder about using it as a boiler. I could do a test and see how well pumping nearly boiling water instead of glycol works to heat up water in the conical. It could be that moving hot water is enough and not need steam.
Interesting concept for sure. Others may have a more experience, but my concern would be temperature control once you got to where distillate started to evaporate. You'd probably need the ability to mix cold water with your hot water source.
How big is that conical? Looks like the 7 - 10 gallon size. If so, seems like a lot of engineering & expense that could be avoided with a used sanke keg.
n_plains_drifter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:11 pm
Interesting concept for sure. Others may have a more experience, but my concern would be temperature control once you got to where distillate started to evaporate. You'd probably need the ability to mix cold water with your hot water source.
How big is that conical? Looks like the 7 - 10 gallon size. If so, seems like a lot of engineering & expense that could be avoided with a used sanke keg.
YMMV.
Best, Drifter
I hope to do a test recirculating hot water as I have that technology but not a steam generator. My big concern is moving enough heat to even work. If hot water works temp control should be easy enough with control of both the recirculation and temp of the recirculated water. I anticipate running the recirculation as fast as it will go and control the temp of the hot water. It's 8 gallon in size more or less for 5 gallon beer recipes. I anticipate a limited use for a stripping run on the grain.
Expat wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:27 pm
Price of those conicals would definitely keep some away. Otherwise I'm sure you they would work well enough for a pot still.
They're tool tall for a reflux column boiler.
They are spendy. I have had one for quite a while for beer and only wondering about multitasking since it's cheaper to reuse then get or make a bain marie/double boiler. I see it for use to strip on the grain and not much else.
They are expensive and in need of modification but I believe it would work. I'm trying to build something like this, have done some tests and it works perfectly with the vapor jacket. I think it is the most versatile system in the hobby field and beyond.
You might be able to get it to work. How would you heat it? You could get a 1.5"TC heating element in a side port. I would worry about the lid seal, it's probably a silicone gasket. How would you seal the hole for the air lock? I bet you would outgrow it quickly.
... using some vague and nebulous wording. Pricey but it looks like a nice build. That could make a nice, versatile set-up for someone new to the game and buying equipment for the first time.
________________
I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
... using some vague and nebulous wording. Pricey but it looks like a nice build. That could make a nice, versatile set-up for someone new to the game and buying equipment for the first time.
The included condenser seems to operate by misting cold water into the steam output.
That's not for distillation. It's just to eliminate the need for a hood during a long wort boil. Without either, you'll release a gallon of water as steam in your brew area which may be problematic depending on your setup.
Water mist is used as the condenser.
jward wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:25 am
I hope to do a test recirculating hot water as I have that technology but not a steam generator. My big concern is moving enough heat to even work.
Having no distillation experience and figuring on running without temp readings I hadn't payed much attention to things like the expected wash temps during a stripping run. Thinking about it more and looking at the water-ethanol boiling charts it's awfully close to boiling temp of water which makes sense as most of the ethanol boils off. I have doubts that recirculating boiling water from a kettle through the jacket will achieve the temps needed and the process will actually require steam. I plan to test but need to finish a controller so I can get logging of kettle and wash temps during the test.
I did the test. As I suspected hot water only gets the conical contents to about 200F. The graph is an image provided by the controller and the data wrapped, so the left edge of the graph is really the end of the session. Blue line is the HLT water and the other color is the wash/water temp. You can see the timestamps at the bottom.
The basic setup: heating the water in the HLT and recirculating through the conical jacket.
You can see the flow in this picture. It's more flow through the conical than I expected since the conical has 1/4" NPT fittings to the jacket. I expect steam injection will flow OK through the jacket. I had to put some restriction on the pump to prevent cavitation as the wash/water got hot.
6.36kWh electricity used in the test. So, close to a $1 in electricity by my estimation at local rates.
You would have to pressurize the whole boiling water system to about 4psig to raise the boiling point to at least 220° or use about 50% propylene glycol to raise the boiling point above 220° that way there would be enough temperature difference between the heating liquid and the heated liquid.
Zeotropic wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:30 pm
You would have to pressurize the whole boiling water system to about 4psig to raise the boiling point to at least 220° or use about 50% propylene glycol to raise the boiling point above 220° that way there would be enough temperature difference between the heating liquid and the heated liquid.
Thanks. I am a bit uncomfortable to run with pressure, in part this conical isn't designed with pressure in mind and in part a lack of experience/confidence on my part. I didn't think about using propylene glycol. That might be a very good option.
Zeotropic wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:30 pm
You would have to pressurize the whole boiling water system to about 4psig to raise the boiling point to at least 220° or use about 50% propylene glycol to raise the boiling point above 220° that way there would be enough temperature difference between the heating liquid and the heated liquid.
Thanks. I am a bit uncomfortable to run with pressure, in part this conical isn't designed with pressure in mind and in part a lack of experience/confidence on my part. I didn't think about using propylene glycol. That might be a very good option.
Just make absolutely positive that you get food safe propylene glycol and not ethylene glycol.
Zeotropic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:09 am
Just make absolutely positive that you get food safe propylene glycol and not ethylene glycol.
I am on that from the cooling side. I used food grade antifreeze for cooling but it ended up bio fouling, so I switched to RO water that I change if it ever looks or smells bad. Any tips on storing 50% propylene glycol? If I use it to heat on occasion I can probably load it fairly hot into a corny keg for storage to prevent bio fouling. Pressurize the keg headspace to keep it from wrinkling the keg as it cools.
Zeotropic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:09 am
Just make absolutely positive that you get food safe propylene glycol and not ethylene glycol.
I am on that from the cooling side. I used food grade antifreeze for cooling but it ended up bio fouling, so I switched to RO water that I change if it ever looks or smells bad. Any tips on storing 50% propylene glycol? If I use it to heat on occasion I can probably load it fairly hot into a corny keg for storage to prevent bio fouling. Pressurize the keg headspace to keep it from wrinkling the keg as it cools.
I don't know anything about keeping it from going bad but maybe if you go full strength there might not be enough water for things to grow. I will do some research.
Zeotropic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:19 pm
I just did some research and it looks like solutions over 25% glycol are much less prone to microbiological degradation so 50+% should be good.
This little project came back up in my mind. I was wondering if heating with an electric heating element would be an issue getting higher temperatures and the surface of the heating element? I'm not sure how hot the element gets at the surface while in a watery liquid like a water/glycol mix would be. Glycol can degrade or burn but seems pretty stable in water. It would be a shame to ruin glycol and a heating element.
Any jacket that can handle steam can handle hot water. Steam is dangerous and completely unrealistic to temperature manage, but it boils good.
Hot water works great, under pressure. I have two similar systems hooked up to a home-style oil-fired boiler. Keep the water under pressure and I can run up to 250F.
From the pic your system can't run under pressure so I'm wondering if you had success.
After reading about bain maries, double boilers, steam injection, and etc. here on HD I tried a searches on google for those and even jacketed boiler. Well, jacketed boiler got lots of hits for jacketed conicals which got me thinking.... I had a conversation with a friend about pushing steam into the jacket instead of glycol. He had some caution about how they are constructed and welded internally but the one I have should handle steam if not done under pressure. Makes me wonder about using it as a boiler. I could do a test and see how well pumping nearly boiling water instead of glycol works to heat up water in the conical. It could be that moving hot water is enough and not need steam.
