Condenser question/problem, maybe.

[NorthWoodsAb]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this question but here it goes. I have already read many many threads on product condensers.
1. I am having two issues with my still and product. I'm not happy with my product. I can't t seem to get a clean product. Heads seem to smear into everything without a clear hearts cut.
2. When I get into a run there comes a point where I am using a huge amount of water in the PC and getting very warm product, with slow returns. Summer time I have cooling water at 8-10*C, winter I can keep it 0-3*C, I dump snow into my cooler/reservoir, with a 600 gpm pond pump circulating through pc. I have an abundance of snow for at least 6 months per year.
My Rig.
100L/26g boiler. 4500w element. Basic controller where I can control Amps. I usually heat up slowly at 18A and run at 11A. Takes me 90-100 min to bring my wash from 16*c to product delivery.
3" column x 24" section, 6" glass section with or without bubble plate depending on what I'm running.
Top 3x4 condenser with 3/8" od product delivery tube, 24" long with 18" leibig, 3/8 x 3/4 x 18".

When I bought this rig I had ordered the column with a 50L boiler, when I went to pick up he had sold 50 I ordered so I bought the 100L boiler.

My boiler has 19.5" of surface diameter creating vapor, going into a 3" column, with a 1/4" id delivery take off.

This has-been a long narrative but the real question is am i creating more vapor than my pc can separate or cool?
I really don't know how to do the math on this one but I have seen other stills with 2-3" coming off the top into condenser, I'm thinking my setup has a restriction at the take off point that is causing my purity problem and a pc that is insufficient to cool vapor.
With cooling water in at 0*c and coming off at 50*c I have product at 35+*c with vapor. 1L/20 min production.

I'm thinking I should upsize my product delivery to a larger size and condenser.
Any and all advice appreciated.
Oms

[zed255]

First thought is your product condenser is too short and narrow. The 3/8" inner tube means fast vapour with too little dwell time and the short length means you have to run water fast and will still get hot product.

I use a 36" long (jacket, not overall) 3/4" over 1/2" with wire spiral in the jacket and can get cold product with minimal water flow on a spirit run and with more water just warm product when stripping. Can keep up with my 1/2 BBL keg and 6kW of internal elements. I have to reduce my water pressure to about 12psi to even get a temperature gradient at all on a spirit run.

[Twisted Brick]

Nice pot still, Northwoods. Just curious, where did you get it?

[Saltbush Bill]

At a guess having a quick glance at the photo and the figures that Liebig condenser should be capable of what your asking of it.
How much water pressure do you have ......seems to me it needs more water pumped through it faster.

[still_stirrin]

Yep, I agree with Zed.

The product condenser vapor tube is too small. With a 3” column, even with the reflux condenser running, you’re pushing vapor too fast for the PC’s vapor tube. The vapor velocity doesn’t allow it to condense fully in the tube. Increase the ID of the tube to 1/2”. And you likely will need a longer condenser too. Just make a 36” long 3/4” over 1/2” Liebig and it’ll work much better.

Also, SBB got it...I suspect your pond pump may be overworked to lift enough water through the small tubing diameter for the needed head lift and still provide adequate flow rate for your condensers. I see you’ve raised the reservoir to help, but the flow loss in the tubing is still robbing you of throuhgput.
ss

[NorthWoodsAb]

Nice pot still, Northwoods. Just curious, where did you get it?

Bought it from Hawk Probate in Sherwood Park. Ab.

[NorthWoodsAb]

Thanks for reply guys appreciate it. I was definitely thinking of upsizing to 1/2" at least from the head. This would be 4x the size of 1/4" I currently have.
Would this also help with separation as well?

[Deplorable]

Northwoods, I can relate to the problems you're having from the still I started with.
I had a 2" Stainless steel setup like that, and yes the outlet to the product condenser is way too small for the vapors that 3 inch column is pushing up creating way too much velocity, and way to little dwell time in your short condenser.
You're going to be speed constrained by that 1/4 inch offtake IMO, until you rectify it.
A larger PC will help, but not as much as it could if your offtake had a larger ID. Say, 3/4 inch.
Nice boiler there.

Can you take a picture of the offtake from the head to the PC?

[Chauncey]

That tiny quarter inch off take will create a backpressure in the boiler which will increase the boiling point of the solution, and can lead to smearing afaik. For safety and quality sake switch to 1/2 inch minimum. 1 inch if possible

[30xs]

Building a longer Liebig would also allow removal of the plastic hose from the collection spout.

[Yummyrum]

Thanks for reply guys appreciate it. I was definitely thinking of upsizing to 1/2" at least from the head. This would be 4x the size of 1/4" I currently have.
Would this also help with separation as well?

The separation issue in my mind is probably caused by a few factors .
First I’m going to assume that the 24” column is full of packing and that you running it as a reflux still .
If the 24” section is not packed , then it is nothing more than a Pot still and smearing is the nature of the beast .

Now assuming it is a reflux still ,what are you trying to make ?
If it is a Neutral or Vodka then 24” is way to short to allow any reasonable separation ...IE .. being able to compress heads and seperate them out before the hearts .
Also that style of reflux condenser, which I am going to correctly call a Deflagmator seeing this is a Coolant management (CM) style of still is not particularly efficient at being able to knock down much power . Basically all the vapour shoots straight up the middle of it and little gets condensed and returned as reflux .... Your reflux ration is very low and so is the columns ability to separate fractions .

Running at very low power can help the situation as you will no be overpowering the Deflag .This will mean that way less Product is passing the Deflag and the pissy Product condenser will have a better chance at keeping up .

So in my mind , if you wanted to up production you need to increase the length of the Packed section , replace the Deflag with a more efficient one that is capable of fulling knocking back all the boiler power and this will allow the still to seperate at its best advantage .

You may find that at a reasonable takeoff rate so maintain a high proof that the PC is adequate , however it is undersized for probably much more than 1 litre an hour

[NorthWoodsAb]

Northwoods, I can relate to the problems you're having from the still I started with.
I had a 2" Stainless steel setup like that, and yes the outlet to the product condenser is way too small for the vapors that 3 inch column is pushing up creating way too much velocity, and way to little dwell time in your short condenser.
You're going to be speed constrained by that 1/4 inch offtake IMO, until you rectify it.
A larger PC will help, but not as much as it could if your offtake had a larger ID. Say, 3/4 inch.
Nice boiler there.

Can you take a picture of the offtake from the head to the PC?

Thanks that is what I figured. When I was shopping around it seemed that all the sellers were offering units like this felt they must have had the flow and piping figured out. I can't push this thing hard for a stripping run at all. I talked to Doug at Hawk Probate a few times and visited his distillery, he said that column worked well on a 50L boiler. I'm thinking the 100L is just creating too much vapor.
For some reason I can't attach pic of the head and vapor tube.

[Yummyrum]

Also forgot to add that with a big boiler charge you have , that that size of coolant tank won’t be big enough to handle a reflux run , it probably needs to be at least 10x as big as your boiler .

That size tank will probably just be big enough for a stripping run though .

Sorry not trying to put your setup down , just saying it as I see it from my experience

[Yummyrum]

I'm thinking the 100L is just creating too much vapor.

Naa , has nothing to do with the boiler size or the size of the column , its how hard you run the element . Turn it down until you upsize the rest .

[NorthWoodsAb]

Yummy thanks for reply.
To answer your questions.
No my column isn't packed like it could be. I use 2 rolls of 4" copper mesh rolled on the loose side.

I don't run the column condenser all the time have been experimenting with it to see if I can get a little compression of the heads at the start of a run then shut down water and run it like a pot still. Results are varied but not what I want yet.

I have been making the Hook Rum recipe from this site. I want to get into grains and single malt, but need to figure this still out first before going to the work and expense of grains.
My last 3 runs, first 3L come off at 87-88%, then it will settle into 83% for the next 5-6L, then it will start dropping off a few % per liter. I'll shut it down at about 40% after collecting 16-17 L of product. I'm not trying to make neutrals at all.

Or am I just running this thing all wrong?

Oms

[Chauncey]

Quarter inch offtake on a cm or pot still sounds down right unsafe to me.

[still_stirrin]

Quarter inch offtake on a cm or pot still sounds down right unsafe to me.

Totally agree with this.

The product outlet on my liquid managed (LM) reflux still is 1/4" ID. And that is a LIQUID PRODUCT. I can't imagine a 1/4" ID tube would work (safely) on any still that pushed vapor through it. The small diameter simply causes too much flow restriction for a hot vapor. As that happens, the pressure drop through the tubing during a flow would require the boiler to be at increased pressure, which a boiling wash would certainly be capable of doing. Hence, the explosion potential drastically increases.

If for some reason, your boiler pushed a "puke" into a 1/4" vapor tube, the pressure build up would happen extremely fast. Without some sort of blow off regulation, your boiler would very quickly become a BOMB....not, "the bomb"...a real explosive BOMB! And if there was any source of spark, it could explode and cause major damage to the property and life.

1/4" tubing is never advised for a still unless it is for a liquid, ie - liquid product outlet or water piping. Never use it for a vapor line...NEVER!
ss

[NorthWoodsAb]

Also forgot to add that with a big boiler charge you have , that that size of coolant tank won’t be big enough to handle a reflux run , it probably needs to be at least 10x as big as your boiler .

That size tank will probably just be big enough for a stripping run though .

Sorry not trying to put your setup down , just saying it as I see it from my experience

Not to worry. I do want to build a good set up. My cooling water does not return to cooler when I'm running. Just contains my pump, snow or ice to chill my water and loss is made up from tap water. The colder my water the less I use. Early in run it doesn't use a lot of water. By 40% ABV pump flow is wide open and can't keep up with heat from product.
This is why I asked question and posted pic of set up. If I end up having it picked apart to end up with results I'm after, mission accomplished.
Cheers

[googe]

Nice boiler, column, controller. The condenser looks so undersize, double the size or a shorgun and you'd have a really nice versitial setup

[jake_jimmylegs]

I don't think your takeoff size is that unreasonable, I use a keg with 1/4" takeoff port on top of passive reflux column, but your liebig is definitely too short and the vapor tube should be wire-wound. Smearing is likely either too much power or not enough reflux. Low and slow just like bbq brisket to get good heads separation, keep an eye on the output flow, it should just be dripping individual drips during heads and will noticeably increase to stream without changing heat input when you are in the hearts fraction.

[acfixer69]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this question but here it goes. I have already read many many threads on product condensers.
1. I am having two issues with my still and product. I'm not happy with my product. I can't t seem to get a clean product. Heads seem to smear into everything without a clear hearts cut.
2. When I get into a run there comes a point where I am using a huge amount of water in the PC and getting very warm product, with slow returns. Summer time I have cooling water at 8-10*C, winter I can keep it 0-3*C, I dump snow into my cooler/reservoir, with a 600 gpm pond pump circulating through pc. I have an abundance of snow for at least 6 months per year.
My Rig.
100L/26g boiler. 4500w element. Basic controller where I can control Amps. I usually heat up slowly at 18A and run at 11A. Takes me 90-100 min to bring my wash from 16*c to product delivery.
3" column x 24" section, 6" glass section with or without bubble plate depending on what I'm running.
Top 3x4 condenser with 3/8" od product delivery tube, 24" long with 18" leibig, 3/8 x 3/4 x 18".

When I bought this rig I had ordered the column with a 50L boiler, when I went to pick up he had sold 50 I ordered so I bought the 100L boiler.

My boiler has 19.5" of surface diameter creating vapor, going into a 3" column, with a 1/4" id delivery take off.

This has-been a long narrative but the real question is am i creating more vapor than my pc can separate or cool?
I really don't know how to do the math on this one but I have seen other stills with 2-3" coming off the top into condenser, I'm thinking my setup has a restriction at the take off point that is causing my purity problem and a pc that is insufficient to cool vapor.
With cooling water in at 0*c and coming off at 50*c I have product at 35+*c with vapor. 1L/20 min production.

I'm thinking I should upsize my product delivery to a larger size and condenser.
Any and all advice appreciated.
Oms





received_714520552519478.jpeg

Top 3x4 condenser with 3/8" od product delivery tube, 24" long with 18" leibig, 3/8 x 3/4 x 18"
I don't understand this statement. 3/8"od delivery tube 24" long??. Also the 18" leibig 3/8" in 3/4"is to small for that much kw.

[NorthWoodsAb]

I was going to build a shotgun but came across Brutal's post. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=59998 , picked up most of what I need to build it. Some 1 1/4" bits and it's build time. I think this will work well.