Fermentation finished?

[RocketSurgeon]

Brand new member...embarrassed to already need to post...grrr:

I'm a graduate in good standing ofthe George school...thought I could swim, jumped in too soon, and am now struggling to keep my head above water. I didn't find this site until I had already begun my first 15 gallon sugar wash fermentation.

I used roughly 2 lbs of table sugar per gallon, and made my own psudo-turbo yeast mixture, if memory serves: 1 tbsp DADY, 2 tbsp yeast nutrient, 1/2 tbsp DP.

Heated sugar water mixture to about 120F to dissolve sugar, then cooled to about 80F and pitched the premixed yeast mixture: 3-1/2 tbsp per five gallons. (edit: corrected this ratio from previously stated: one gallon)

Slowly cooled to 78F, per George (despite the instructions on an unused pack of commercial turbo-yeast that came with my still, which recommended a temperature of 85-110F). I eventually noticed that the CO2 production was much more aggressive at about 80-85F, so I left it there for 4-5 days.

I'm using a painters glove as an airlock and, while I started with a single toothpick sized vent hole in a finger, I quickly had to add 6-7 more holes, for fear the glove would burst.

The fermentation seemed very aggressive, filled my 4000 sq.ft. shop with CO2, and made me dizzy with the concentration in the 800 sq.ft. room with the fermenter. I took all of this as a good sign, and enjoyed the buzz from O2 displacement caused by the CO2.

Finally, my question:
The fermentation has apparently stopped, as the glove is drooping, but I've noticed that when I turn up the temp of the fermenter by 5-6 degrees, and the heating element slowly kicks in, the glove immediately fully inflates again with copious volumes of CO2 issuing from the holes.

Does this mean that the fermentation is not complete and, perhaps, I should raise the temperature slowly until the CO2 stops being issued? Or, does this mean that when I bump the temp the heating element activity is dislodging dissolved CO2 held in solution?

As I understand the process, I expect comments here to direct me to measure the S.G. of the mash (don't know the correct name for a fermenting sugar wash mixture), which I understand should approach 1.000 as the fermentation completes. Unfortunately, I seem to have purchased the wrong kind of hydrometer, and it isn't giving intelligible readings. (It says proof and tralle on it). I am waiting on a triple scale type of hydrometer now.

I don't think this is pertinent, but in the interest of full disclosure: two days into my active fermentation, the power failed. It was out for about 24 hours. The fermentation room dropped to about 43F, but I wrapped the fermenter in a sleeping bag, and the PID controller held the temperature just fine.

Also, how in the he** do you spell the name of the vessel one ferments in??? Spell check doesn't like "fermenter" or "fermentor", both of which I see all over the net.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give all necessary information. It seems that, in my very first post, I have acquired some sort of red dot in the icon for the post...so sorry if I have already violated some rule of the forum.

Thank you for your time.

[zapata]

A proof and trail hydrometer, aka alcoholmeter is calibrated to give accurate readings only in distilled spirits. But it can be used to give unitless insight. Just throw it in, and see if it drops over the next 24 hours. If not you know it's done. If it drops, wait until it doesn't drop for 24-48 hours. Units don't matter unless you are trying to gauge actual alcohol or sugar strength.

I suspect what you are seeing is just c02 offgassing. CO2 is less soluble at warmer temps, so the heat drives off dissolved co2. Same phenomenon as hot beer or soda being excessively bubbly compared to cold.

A sugar wash is indeed referred to as a just a wash, though you'll see people call it a mash often enough. I personally don't put much stock in airlocks unless you aren't planning on running it immediately or have a large resident population of aggressive insects. Active fermentation is usually strong enough to disuade the casual fruit or housefly.

[RocketSurgeon]

Ahhh...an excellent suggestion on unitless insight. I'll do just that.
Thanks.

[NZChris]

The fermentation seemed very aggressive, filled my 4000 sq.ft. shop with CO2, and made me dizzy with the concentration in the 800 sq.ft. room with the fermenter. I took all of this as a good sign, and enjoyed the buzz from O2 displacement caused by the CO2.

Think about venting the CO2 to outside. Many years ago, a Kiwi home brewer was found dead in his shed. The coroner concluded it was due to the CO2.

[30xs]

DADY yeast range is 69-90 degrees. Judging by the range of 80-85 you were within a decent range. Increasing it 5-6 degrees would put you at the upper limit range. I’d bet thermal expansion and outgassing had more to do with the glove expansion than yeast activity. Does it sizzle when the kid is off? Does it taste sweet, or dry? What size is the ferment? 4-5 days seems quick for a 1.090 SG, but DAP may have sped that up a bit.

PS, I’d call it a fermenter.

[RocketSurgeon]

NZChris: yeah, ventilation was the solution. I was aware of the dangers of CO2. Just kidding about the buzz.

30xs: I'll collect the answers to your questions when at the building tonight.

[RocketSurgeon]

30xs:
It is a 15 gallon batch. I don't detect any "sizzle" when the lid or pid is off (not sure which you meant). When the PID is off, I see no outgasing. I would say that it is definitely not a "dry" taste, but not particularly sweet either. I would describe it as very mildly sweet. It is not sticky on the hands. When I raise the temperature to about 95, and the PID energizes the element, I see the convection in the vessel, and then it outgases and will fill up the glove. When the PID is de-energized, the glove slumps. After checking my records, I see it has been 6 days since pitched.

[cob]

It's a long and winding road, especially after having followed George for a bit.

as for the fermenter I call mine a barrel some use littler barrels and call them

buckets, then there is brute, garbage can, and carboy. ignore spell check as most

around here know what you mean any way. the little red dot has me confused but

if it is a little red star, it means you wrote something in that thread.

good you found this path, confusing though it may be.

[RocketSurgeon]

My mistake...I'm a feeble old fart with bad vision; it is, in fact, a red star.
Thanks.

[RocketSurgeon]

Data revision: after checking my data, I used 2.33 lb. sugar per gallon of H20. Also, I set the pH to 5.2 after the sugar was added, but before pitching.

Perhaps I ran out of water in the fermentation? If so, how to recover?

How is the OG in the wash being measured, if the alcoholmeter only measures the alcohol content in a distilled spirit? I want to measure OG and FG.

Edit: Ordered a refractometer.

[Oldvine Zin]

Data revision: after checking my data, I used 2.33 lb. sugar per gallon of H20. Also, I set the pH to 5.2 after the sugar was added, but before pitching.

Perhaps I ran out of water in the fermentation? If so, how to recover?

How is the OG in the wash being measured, if the alcoholmeter only measures the alcohol content in a distilled spirit? I want to measure OG and FG.

Edit: Ordered a refractometer.

There many tools available out there and all have their specific uses. A proof and trails hydrometer measures alcohol content only, a SG hydrometer measures the gravity of your mash or wort, and a refractometer measures sugars. For monitoring my ferments I like to use the refractometer, that said you have to use a conversion calc to determine the true sugars once fermentation and alcohol have started.

Stay safe
OVZ

[The Baker]

The fermentation seemed very aggressive, filled my 4000 sq.ft. shop with CO2, and made me dizzy with the concentration in the 800 sq.ft. room with the fermenter. I took all of this as a good sign, and enjoyed the buzz from O2 displacement caused by the CO2.

Think about venting the CO2 to outside. Many years ago, a Kiwi home brewer was found dead in his shed. The coroner concluded it was due to the CO2.

Or to the greenhouse, plants love it.
Our tomato grower (LITERALLY acres under glass, at least thirty acres) pipes carbon dioxide to the plants in a soft plastic 'hose' with 'slots' in it.
Not sure if it comes from the gas heaters which heat HEAPS of water to circulate and keep the plants happy at night.
His insulated hot water tank might (just a guess) hold fifty or a hundred thousand gallons (Imperial or US, take your pick).
Anyway, yes, to the greenhouse.

Geoff

[NJen]

Just make sure if you vent it to your greenhouse you understand that when you increase concentrations of CO2 for growing plants, the amount of heat needed in the space may increase as well to keep the plants respiring properly. Plants can suffocate from abundance of CO2 also. If it's not warm enough and there is too much CO2 in the area, it can force water vapor to build up in the stomata of the plant and not allow them to breathe correctly. If you're interested in reading a bit more about it, you might do a bit of reading about vapor pressure deficits in greenhouses using supplemented carbon dioxide.

[Corsaire]

Perhaps stay clear of george for a bit.

Have a look at the recipes in our tried and true section. You'll find they have sensible amounts of sugar to water, and yeast nutrients.

Skip the birdwatchers. I like rad's all bran. Shady's seems to be popular but I haven't tried it yet. Have a look at ted's fast fermenting vodka and googe's goo as well, even though they're not in t&t I like them.

But if you want to keep mucking with this one, perhaps look at pH levels. You mentioned you lowered it at the start. How did you measure it's at 5.2? Or did you just use that 5.2 stabiliser? That product's turned out to be garbage, btw.

Any ferment will drop in pH levels, but pure sugar washes have nothing to protect them dropping too low. It's why a lot of people drop in oyster shells. As the pH drops the shells dissolve, raising the pH.

As long as you can taste sweetness there's still sugar in there.
I don't use imperial units, but according to the calculator (you'll find them at the bottom of the page) that yields a sg of 1.107 which is quite high.
You can try to add more water. When you add too much sugar yeast eventually creates so much alcohol they poison themselves and make bad tasting congeners. It's why recipes you'll find here use less sugar, it makes for a better spirit. If you want more alcohol, get a bigger fermenter instead of stressing out your yeast.

I've never used a refractometer, just a brewer's hydrometer. You should find them in brewshops. Order two or three, they have a habit of committing suicide when you need them.

[RocketSurgeon]

Thanks for the feedback, which confirms what I've learned from this site in my short exposure to it:

1. Bid a fond farewell to George.
2. His recommended 2-2.5 lb. sugar per gallon is too much sugar.
3. Track the S.G. throughout the fermentation process.
4. Use a taste test to gauge fermentation completion.

I located Shady's recipe right out of the gate, and will try that next.

Rather than bail on this first attempt, I think I will split the 15 gallon wash into two batches, add water, and see if I can jump start a secondary fermentation. I might as well turn it into a learning experience.

Corsaire: I set the pH initially with a BlueLab constant immersion pH/ppm/temp meter that I already owned. My native pH from well water is about 6.3. I lowered it to 5.2 with powdered citric acid. Georges videos counseled to set it once and forget it. I will reconsider that advice.

[RocketSurgeon]

Ok, I split the batch...more or less.

pH of wash prior to split was down from 5.2 to 3.2. I'll try the shells next time.

Any trick to buying oyster shells? I looked online and found a wide range of various craft based "oyster shells"...not sure what to get. I see references here to some sort of use as a chicken food additive. I'll check with the local COOP.

[greggn]

Any trick to buying oyster shells?

"Manna Pro" is a commonly available brand in US pet and feed stores.

Another option are marble chips ... commonly found in the landscaping section of the big-box stores. I fill a kettle screen with marble chips and plug the end with a rubber stopper. It's too long to lay flat, and become buried in trub, so it sits nicely angled across the middle of the fermenter and fully exposed to the wash. Each 7-8 gallon ferment eats about an inch of chips.

[NZChris]

I go to the beach and pick up large shells. I prefer large shells as they have a smaller surface area to volume ratio so are less likely to wreck your wash if you make newbie mistakes like using too much, or not taking them out after the ferment goes dead.

Marble. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64169

[Yummyrum]

I take a more “rough as guts “approach and just grab a handful of shell grit I got from the rural store for the chooks and chuck it in .
If its a bigger fermenter , I’ll chuck in a few more . Over dosing doesn’t seem to matter from what I’ve found .

I usually strip a week or two after its finished . But on a few occassions. I’ve left the dregs in the fermenter for a few months before cleaning out ... but even then out of curiosity , I’ve checked pH of slops and its not really that high . Sorry can’t give number but it was less than 6.00 from memory . ... and there was still shell grit residue in bottom when I hosed it out .

[RocketSurgeon]

Thanks for the shell related replies, I'll get some.

Update on the stalled fermentation: after splitting the batch, adding more H2O, and re-pitching, the fermentation has resumed.

Finally, after my early issue with trying measure pH before and after fermentation, I believe I know where I went wrong:

The information I received from "G" described taking the two measurements to determine the amount of alcohol that might be collected from a sugar wash, and since I thought I was measuring the alcohol content, I was trying to use my alcoholmeter. I was measuring after I pitched which, obviously, didn't work. I wondered at the time how this could measure anything related to the alcohol content, since the S.G. would be the S.G. for the combined water and the yeast components.

After being directed here to get and use a beer/wine S.G. meter, and thinking about it a bit, I now understand that I should have measured the S.G. of only the water and sugar mix. I see now that the difference in measurements will directly give the change in S.G. due only to the change of sugar to alcohol. It's see now that; (final S.G.-initial S.G.)*(some constant C)=(alcohol available for fermentation). If someone can tell me how to find C, I would appreciate it.

Another related, and seemingly useful, calculation, would be (volume of H2O+lbs of sugar)*C2=(alcohol available for fermentation), where C2 is a different constant.

Are these constants available and generally used, or am I heading in the wrong direction? I searched the forum for "fermentation constants" but found nothing.

[Yummyrum]

Type Potential alcohol calculator into the google search on the top right and you will find many links .


But the quick answer is 130

[RocketSurgeon]

Thanks, I found the list of calculators on the home page, and Calcs from Rad14701 is what I needed.

Is there a way I can reverse engineer the calculations used on the web pager, so that I can put it on my HP/phone? I don't have internet access at my distillation location.

[Probus]

I use Alco Calculator as an App on my phone. English is not the first language of the developer. The titles of the calculations are mysterious but worth a look.

[RocketSurgeon]

Sorry, old guy here, and not used to first looking for an APP before programming my own. Goggle shows several that should meet my limited needs.
Thanks.

[RocketSurgeon]

The secondary fermentation has completed. There is no further CO2 production, and the taste is dry, with no sweetness.

I will start my first distillation, in pot still mode, in a few days...after clearing.

Any suggestions or tips would be appreciated.