Shotgun Proportions

[Bushman]

Nice job StillerBoy, my dephlagmater is 4”x6” with five 3/4” tubes and I can get 100% reflux. I did not build Baffles but yours look great!

[StillerBoy]

his efficiency may be a function of the shotgun dividing the incoming vapor into four cooling tubes, but I have never been able to establish a temperature gradient along my condenser's length. Have you been able to establish a gradient on any of your shotguns?

I'm of the same view as you TB, on the dividing the incoming vapors, as vapor can be cooled down quite fast if properly expose to a cooler surface..

As to the temperature gradient, I've never real check for such, as I operate my condenser base on temp of water at the outlet.. if one third is hot and the 2/3 is cold, I would have to say you water flow is to high.. reduce the flow and see what happens as that how i evaluate condenser efficiency.. there should a temp gradient of some kind I would think..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

Thanks Bushman.. and so was the customer it was built for..

Mars

[Deplorable]

TB, I can get a temp gradient on my shotgun, but I had to reduce the water flow down to a trickle. As you know, I have a good amount of product to run this weekend, so I'll try to get you some flow rates.
I dont care as much about the temp of the water outlet temperature, I try to target a distillate temp based on the calibrated temperature of the alchometer I'm using.
Because I'm not running a recirculating system, I added a pressure regulator to my cooling water manifold, and lowered the water pressure, then reduced the size of the cooling lines from 1/2 to 1/4 ID. I think that gave me more control adjustment on my 1/2 gate valves to adjust the water flow, and achieve a gradient, and reduce the amount of water spent. The trickle of water running down the outlet hose doesn't look much thicker than the flow of distillate when I have the jacket warm about 8 to 10 inches down from the outlet, and hot at the outlet.

[StillerBoy]

I dont care as much about the temp of the water outlet temperature, I try to target a distillate temp based on the calibrated temperature of the alchometer I'm using.
Because I'm not running a recirculating system, I added a pressure regulator to my cooling water manifold, and lowered the water pressure, then reduced the size of the cooling lines from 1/2 to 1/4 ID. I think that gave me more control adjustment on my 1/2 gate valves to adjust the water flow, and achieve a gradient, and reduce the amount of water spent. The trickle of water running down the outlet hose doesn't look much thicker than the flow of distillate when I have the jacket warm about 8 to 10 inches down from the outlet, and hot at the outlet.

The reduction or steps taken to reduce the water system setup was not really required.. all that was required was the addition of a needle value.. which is what every water flow setup should have.. I run my setup of the municipal line from which the condenser line is manage from a simple brass needle valve feeding a 3/8" line..

The important of having a controllable water flow rate that allows degree adjustment can not be over stated, if one is operating a reflux column setup.. a degree different in the condenser temp will have a bearing on the refluxing occurring within the column.. and the other component of great important in a refluxing column is power management with the ability to manage quarter amp changes.. and that importance also apply to recirculating setups..

Mars

[Demy]

I think they are the same as the exteriors but cut on one side.

I don't cut the baffles on one side as that method creates dead spot areas.. the baffles I make are of the full size of the inner tube.. what I do is V the plates where the tube are and drill small holes in the space between the tubes..

There is plenty of leakage with full plates anyways... leakage around the outer edge of the plates and the tubes, by adding the extra holes turbulent is create where is needed to be.. but same principal and concept apply to shotgun..

The attached pictures are of a 3 x 5 3/4" x 7 tubes (1/2") dephlegmator.. it was able to knockdown 5500w at 1.3 liter of water flow with no vapors flow through..

Mars

DSC015381.jpgDSC015441.jpg

Thanks a lot, it's a great solution, I like it and it makes a lot of sense. Since there are, I ask you for advice: on 30cm in length, would 2 intermediate deflectors be enough?

[Twisted Brick]

Thank you very much for the pictures I had seen them in the original post, but I meant pictures of the intermediate baffles. I think they are the same as the exteriors but cut on one side.

I followed the specs on the tube and baffle design guidelines and made the baffle cut outlined. Here are a few pics of them separately and just prior to installation for customers.
.

[Twisted Brick]

TB, I can get a temp gradient on my shotgun, but I had to reduce the water flow down to a trickle. As you know, I have a good amount of product to run this weekend, so I'll try to get you some flow rates.
I dont care as much about the temp of the water outlet temperature, I try to target a distillate temp based on the calibrated temperature of the alchometer I'm using.
Because I'm not running a recirculating system, I added a pressure regulator to my cooling water manifold, and lowered the water pressure, then reduced the size of the cooling lines from 1/2 to 1/4 ID. I think that gave me more control adjustment on my 1/2 gate valves to adjust the water flow, and achieve a gradient, and reduce the amount of water spent. The trickle of water running down the outlet hose doesn't look much thicker than the flow of distillate when I have the jacket warm about 8 to 10 inches down from the outlet, and hot at the outlet.

I like how you regulated your flow, Deplorable. I think I'm gonna change the valve on my shotty.

[Demy]

Great job TB, this was the design I had seen. I think they are both excellent solutions, I think that as long as you create a "mixing" of the water, whatever design works.

[Deplorable]

I dont care as much about the temp of the water outlet temperature, I try to target a distillate temp based on the calibrated temperature of the alchometer I'm using.
Because I'm not running a recirculating system, I added a pressure regulator to my cooling water manifold, and lowered the water pressure, then reduced the size of the cooling lines from 1/2 to 1/4 ID. I think that gave me more control adjustment on my 1/2 gate valves to adjust the water flow, and achieve a gradient, and reduce the amount of water spent. The trickle of water running down the outlet hose doesn't look much thicker than the flow of distillate when I have the jacket warm about 8 to 10 inches down from the outlet, and hot at the outlet.

The reduction or steps taken to reduce the water system setup was not really required.. all that was required was the addition of a needle value.. which is what every water flow setup should have.. I run my setup of the municipal line from which the condenser line is manage from a simple brass needle valve feeding a 3/8" line..

The important of having a controllable water flow rate that allows degree adjustment can not be over stated, if one is operating a reflux column setup.. a degree different in the condenser temp will have a bearing on the refluxing occurring within the column.. and the other component of great important in a refluxing column is power management with the ability to manage quarter amp changes.. and that importance also apply to recirculating setups..

Mars

The needle valve was an additional cost that I didnt want to spend when I already had at my disposal an adjustable pressure regulator, The desicion to reduce the diameter of the cooling water lines was more of an opportunity to reduce bulk, and match the diameter of the cooling lines on the shotgun to match the diameter of the lines on my RC, so it cost me nothing to get the control I needed for both my condensers from the two gate valves on my water manifold.
Running a CCVM, does the ability to make ultra fine adjustments to the flow rate in the RC make as much of a difference since the condenser
is the control valve that determines the amount of reflux in the column? Or are you being more specific to CM still operation?
I thought that with a CCVM the goal with water flow was similar to your PC, where you're just trying to maximize its effeciency, to get a temperature gradient and still prevent any vapor from getting past the condenser. Am I off base? If I am I'd like to better understand.

[StillerBoy]

I like it and it makes a lot of sense. Since there are, I ask you for advice: on 30cm in length, would 2 intermediate deflectors be enough?

If it was I building a 12" (30cm) shotgun I would have 3 baffles spaced 3" (7.5cm apart, and design similar to the 3" baffles plate shown in the previous picture.. they are a little more work, but worth the effort for the end result..

What the extra baffle plate will do is reduce the water flow requirement, making the shotgun much easier to manage its operation..

One can built a 2 baffle plate and cut sides and it will work also but will require extra water flow, that a choice the builder need to make base on his skill level.. the style of built I do requires attention to details during the assembly..

Mars

[Demy]

I like it and it makes a lot of sense. Since there are, I ask you for advice: on 30cm in length, would 2 intermediate deflectors be enough?

If it was I building a 12" (30cm) shotgun I would have 3 baffles spaced 3" (7.5cm apart, and design similar to the 3" baffles plate shown in the previous picture.. they are a little more work, but worth the effort for the end result..

What the extra baffle plate will do is reduce the water flow requirement, making the shotgun much easier to manage its operation..

One can built a 2 baffle plate and cut sides and it will work also but will require extra water flow, that a choice the builder need to make base on his skill level.. the style of built I do requires attention to details during the assembly..

Mars

Great advice, I didn't know if there were any restrictions regarding the measurements. I think it is better to draw, glue on the metal and drill together to get a good alignment.

[StillerBoy]

I didn't know if there were any restrictions regarding the measurements. I think it is better to draw, glue on the metal and drill together to get a good alignment.

Here's how I go about doing the plates.. I cut 5 pieces of 1" x 2" in length M copper pipe, slices the pipe open, anneal the copper, flatten out the annealed parts, and then clean them up with citric acid..

Next I find the center of each plate and center punch all the plates, and drill a 1/4" hole in each plate, then the plates are assembled together making sure that each plate is numbered and a lining mark.. when that done, I now use a 1/4" bolt and assemble all the plates together and machine them down to fit inside the tube easily..

From there I paste my paper disk using a glue stick which as the design drawn on, re-assemble the disks together again and drill pilot holes where needed..

Mars..

[Bushman]

I was lucky enough to have a small CNC machine available to me when I built mine.

[StillerBoy]

Running a CCVM, does the ability to make ultra fine adjustments to the flow rate in the RC make as much of a difference since the condenser is the control valve that determines the amount of reflux in the column? Or are you being more specific to CM still operation?
I thought that with a CCVM the goal with water flow was similar to your PC, where you're just trying to maximize its effeciency, to get a temperature gradient and still prevent any vapor from getting past the condenser. Am I off base? If I am I'd like to better understand.

One of the thing a CCVM, CM or a flute requires is separate water line, one to the RC and one to the PC each with their own needle valve, as each require different flow rate

Refluxing is the function of the packing used, the vapor temperature moving up and the distillate temperature coming down.. and that applies to any style of reflux column used and also a flute.. a flute displays the same behavior except it is visible and plates are used instead of packing..

Change any one of those and the activity will be different.. but the most important items to pay attention to in refluxing is power management and the distillate temperature that has been condensed.. and the distillate temp going down the column is affected by the RC.. to cold or to hot will cause issues by disrupting the balance..

Most people operating a reflux column, fail to understand vapor behavior within the column.. and therefore create all kinds of issues, flooding being the most visible one.. make any kind of packing changes, all without understand what you are doing, and trouble will occur.. that is the main reason why ss scrubbies are far from being the best as they can not be packed the same each time..

RC in a CCVM is not the control valve that determine the amount of reflux.. by moving the RC up or down, what is happening is the amount of vapor restricted or allow to go by or in other word, the take off rate..

The RC in a CCVM works very much the same as any other style RC, it cools down the vapors moving up into it.. the temperature of the cooled distillate influence the vapor coming up through the packing.. but RC in a CCVM also does one other function and that is it also the take off valve, so does two functions..

For maximum efficiency, there needs to be a balance between the amount of vapors moving up and the cool distillate going down per the packing used.. once one has the balance achieved in refluxing before the run starts, then the next step is to repeat the same under take off, is other word maintain the same amount of refluxing while taking some distillate out of the system.. and that isknown as "dialing the unit"..

And the best way of knowing you are achieving maximum reflux efficiency is by listening the vapor behaving in the column.. it's what I call "running i semi flooded state".. in other word you can hear the bubbling of the distillate in the column... when that occur, then the column is dialed in or operating at max at that time, also remembering that the packing used has influence..

Once "vapor behavior" and "vapor behavior management" are understood, one can step up to any style of still and operate it with ease..

Enjoy the journey

Mars

[Deplorable]

Thanks Mars. We're on the same page in regards to how the RC operated in a CCVM. The only difference is how we control the water flow to it. I control the water flow to each condenser separately from gate valves on a manifold rather than needle valves. Once I get the flow of water dialed in on that RC I haven't had a need to adjust it. Just move the condenser up and down making the slightest adjustments in height.
PC water only needs adjustments if there is significant change in take off rate and I'm trying to really reduce the amount of cooling water wasted.

[StillerBoy]

I'm trying to really reduce the amount of cooling water wasted.

If you really want to reduce water waste, change the gate valve to needle valve.. that will give the precision to do so..

Once I get the flow of water dialed in on that RC.

How do you know that the water flow rate is dialed in..

I haven't had a need to adjust it.

If you don't had a need to adjust the flow rate as the run progress, then you are not understanding the importance of RC water temp and how it influcence the reflux activity..

Not trying to pick on you, but want to identify something that could be of value.. plus have you try to flood your column yet..

Mars

[BlueSasquatch]

Have yet to run with this condenser, but I've heard good things about it's efficiency and I like showing it off. It's pricier than a Liebig, but more compact, and I think quite neat looking. Search Trombone/Brutal Condenser.

[StillerBoy]

but I've heard good things about it's efficiency and I like showing it off. It's pricier than a Liebig, but more compact, and I think quite neat looking.

Nice job on the built..

As to its efficiency, that will be questionable having only 15" of cooling area.. the design is not much of an improvement over a regular liebig if used at an angle..

Here's why.. the inner tube will not serve of much use.. cause a liebig or for that matter any PC, only has condensing value within the first couple of inches, after that point it only serve to cool down some the distillate running along the wall if set at 45* degree or so, which the inner will not help in that phase if setup at the angle.. there maybe some improvement if setup vertically thereby allowing the cooled distillate to spread out ..

Whereas a shotgun, by reason of splitting the vapor down into multiple path, and best used in a vertical position ,condense the vapor quicker, and by reason of having less distillate flow down the walls, it cool the distillate faster..

Mars

[The Baker]

Stillerboy I was a bit puzzled when you said, '... a liebig or for that matter any PC, only has condensing value within the first couple of inches...' .

I know it is not that simple; but if what you said is right why do we not have liebigs two inches long??

Geoff. More than usually confused.

[StillerBoy]

a liebig or for that matter any PC, only has condensing value within the first couple of inches...' .

Sure thing.. You have failed to read properly and combine with the lack of understanding how a liebig works, it has confused you.. it states "condensing value".. it does not states "cooling of the condensed distillate"

I know it is not that simple; but if what you said is right why do we not have liebigs two inches long??

It is very simple if one has taken the time to learned what the liebig does.. why a liebig is built to be 3' or 4' long and not 2" long.. simple.. after the first inches, all the PC does is the cool the distillate down...

I have a small PC liebig on my concentric reflux column.. it a 3/8" tube in a 1/2" tube by 9" long.. and it will easily cool the distillate down to 80*F on the tails section of my spirit at 3000w.. why and how can that be.. simple.. it is not condensing the vapors, it's only cooling the distillate.. the condensing is done by the RC..

One reads here all the time how people don't understand how liebig work.. the longest liebig I've used was less than 24" and it would knock down 4000w but I never need to run that hard for many reasons..

Hope that has help resolve the confusion and expanded the understanding..

Mars

[The Baker]

stillerboy said, ' it is not condensing the vapours, it's only cooling the distillate.. the condensing is done by the RC...'

Well that there is a start to understanding.
My pot still does not have a reflux condenser.

So do I need more than a few inches for my pot still?
And I am not being facetious.

Geoff

[RC Al]

My 6ft liebig works optimally on a spirit run with the noticeable temp change in the middle, if its cold all the way up to the vapour entrance I get huffing and if its much past 1/2 way, then its puffing vapour. I have to use a needle valve to get that right, however It seem much less finicky at 12l/h on a stripping run and I can run on just the gate valve.

[tiramisu]

Returning to the original video for a bit ... before we get on with copper porn....

The presenter is very specific in that he is talking about 2 fluids in his model.

In our stills we have a fluid coolant and a heated vapor.
Does this have a significant effect on the calculations and if so how do you adjust the formula assuming we have a table for alcohol vapor/water somewhere to base it on(?). ?

In Theory... Theory and Practice are the same
In Practice...

There is some remarkably random/covariate stuff that occurs in stills and it seems like you either have to be willing to try stuff or use recipes.
It would take some pretty wild engineering to design a still purely in cad/cae

[Saltbush Bill]

I think we should remember that not everyone is trying to scrimp on water flow.....many of us recycle our cooling water.
No matter if you use very little flow or a fast flow.....you will end up with the same amount of heat in your water reservoir at the end of the run.
The two un-baffled shottys I own will knock down 15 and 20 L per hour respectively....probably more with higher water flow.
How many hobbyists really need more than that ?

[Yummyrum]

I think we should remember that not everyone is trying to scrimp on water flow.....many of us recycle our cooling water.
No matter if you use very little flow or a fast flow.....you will end up with the same amount of heat in your water reservoir at the end of the run.

Exactly . Heat in equals heat out .....it has to end up somewhere .


I know I'm late to the party but early on was talk of using 1/4" tubing . I really don't like that idea at all . One tube blocks ...then another ...then another ...you know the outcome .
Whether its a single 1/4" worm or multiple 1/4" in a shell , its just too small to safely handle a lump of shit thrown up from the boiler .

3/8" absolute minimum. Preferably 1/2" if you can tubes in a shotty ......how big is a corn kernel

[Saltbush Bill]

To add to the water flow thing, most of the sump pumps that many of us use thrive on being able to pump high flow, they struggle and loose pressure when that flow is restricted. If you are running a plated column. this in turn can make getting a constant and accurate flow rate to the Defleglamator harder than it need be.
Unless you are using city water straight from a household tap and wish to save on your water bill there is absolutely no need for low flow through a shot gun.

[Demy]

I know I'm late to the party but early on was talk of using 1/4" tubing . I really don't like that idea at all . One tube blocks ...then another ...then another ...you know the outcome .
Whether its a single 1/4" worm or multiple 1/4" in a shell , its just too small to safely handle a lump of shit thrown up from the boiler .

3/8" absolute minimum. Preferably 1/2" if you can tubes in a shotty ......how big is a corn kernel

That's right, very good, that's why I asked the opinion on the forum, I've never dealt with rifles so I have no experience. Having a main tube (say jacket) diameter of 30mm, I think 3/8 fits better, but I'm willing to upgrade to 1/2 if needed.
I have a question in my head: liebig VS shotgun, could they somehow affect / facilitate takeoff speed and reflux? I know it is the opening in the column that determines the ebb ratio but I wonder if a gun (having more vapor space to pass through) affects things in any way.

[StillerBoy]

I have a question in my head: liebig VS shotgun, could they somehow affect / facilitate takeoff speed and reflux?

If you need to ponder that question, then you lack understanding of how a reflux column works.. and need some serious researching on the subject..

Refluxing activity is one function.. take off rate is another function.. and here another point that been misunderstood in this refluxing activity..

Refluxing speed is considerable slower than a stripping activity.. refluxing is not about speed.. it's about balancing two activities at the start (power and RC), then incorporating a third activity ( take off).. and the goal is to balance the three, based on the unit design and packing..

Mars

[Demy]

I have a question in my head: liebig VS shotgun, could they somehow affect / facilitate takeoff speed and reflux?

If you need to ponder that question, then you lack understanding of how a reflux column works.. and need some serious researching on the subject..

Refluxing activity is one function.. take off rate is another function.. and here another point that been misunderstood in this refluxing activity..

Refluxing speed is considerable slower than a stripping activity.. refluxing is not about speed.. it's about balancing two activities at the start (power and RC), then incorporating a third activity ( take off).. and the goal is to balance the three, based on the unit design and packing..

Mars

Yes, I know what you are saying but I was just wondering if the 2 PC types behave differently when interacting with the column. For example my current liebig (vapor passage) is 1/2 "while using a shotgun you would have more room for vapor, I believe a consequence of this is a decrease in vapor velocity (which is positive), I was wondering if they change other factors as well.