Flute Operating Parameters for Bourbon

[BamaHawk]

Hello Expert Craftsmen,
I have just completed my second all grain run and now have some questions in which the search function has been unable to answer (I'm sure it's there but I have yet to find it).

I am running a 4 plate 4" flute still and the recipe I used for both runs consisted of Corn 66.7%, Malted Barley 19%, Rye 9.5% and oats 4.8%.

On my first run, I tried to optimize the flute/defleg and the result was a distillate in the 94% range through most of the run (until I hit tails and the ABV began a rapid decline). The finished product, unaged, was clean tasting and the heads and tails were fairly condensed and easy to separate. I now have most of this run on oak dominos and will give it a taste in a few months to see how the flavor is developing.

For my second run, I wanted to more closely follow the "rules" of bourbon (Bourbon must be distilled to no more than 160 (U.S.) proof (80% alcohol by volume).) as I was planning to age this in an oak barrel for an extended period. In this run I loaded and balanced the plates, as I did in my first run, and then pulled off the foreshots and heads at a high abv (~94%). Once I felt like I was past the heads I reduced the defleg driving the ABV down to between 140 - 160 proof for the rest of the run. My take off rate varied between 1.5 - 1.75 l/h for what I felt should have been the hearts and tails. I collected all jars between 200-300ml. The last 2 jars were cloudy so they went into the feints jar immediately but I kept everything else. I let the jars sit for 3 days before I came back to for blending and separating of cuts.

Now to my question, the tails appear to have smeared throughout most of the hearts (cardboard like) so I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong. I know there are bourbon's produced by big manufacturers on column stills within the rules so I don't see it as an equipment issue so it must be user error.

I welcome any thoughts on what, if anything, I did incorrectly in this second run. If more info is needed please let me know.

I also performed a "tasting" between my spirits (run 1 and 2) and a "white dog" from a major distillery and what I noticed is that the major distillery (mash bill of 84% Corn, 8% Rye, 8% Barley) had a much more distinct "corn" flavor than mine. I suppose part of this is due to the higher percentage of corn in their mash bill but I could definitely taste a significant difference. In my run #1 I couldn't pick up much, if any, corn and in my run #2 I had a hard time getting past the tails taste to pick up any corn.

[LWTCS]

For starters, you really are not going to be able to replicate what the big bourbon houses are doing because most of em are running continuous bourbon stills. And their barrel program ranges from 2 to 4 years worth of sleepy time in 53 gallon barrels.

If you feel like your tails are smear'd through the entire run then I would say you're putting a bit too much heat input to your kettle.

With respect to any hazing, most of the bourbon houses bottle at overproof to minimize this issue.

[bluefish_dist]

Imho flavor comes from smearing. Too little and you have vodka, too much and it’s undrinkable. My theory is that the amount of impurities is your flavor. When you pull off at 195 proof, only 2.5% of what you get isn’t alcohol. At 130 proof it’s 35%. So the trick is to find the spot where you have enough separation that the spirit is clean enough after aging. I further think you need bolder/rougher spirits when you age. If it’s pretty clean, it won’t take long before the oak overpowers the spirit. A rougher one will take longer in the barrel to smooth out and the stronger flavors stand up to the oak. My official taster likened a good bourbon coming off the still as licking a grain bin. Lots of raw grain flavor. 6-24 months later that flavor melds into a nice spirit.

My bourbon column setup was 2 plates and I took off between 130 and 145 proof. The ones around 145 could be done aging in 6-12 months. The 130 proof ones were better after 2 years. Since I ran a vm, there was no way to reduce reflux to below 1:1. Because of that I have to reduce the number of plates if I want a lower abv off the still. I have to tune it based on the abv of the wash/wort and what I want as a takeoff abv. With a cm, you should be able to reduce reflux low enough that you may not need to reconfigure the still. May be worth testing which makes better whiskey, more plates, less reflux or fewer plates, more reflux.

[BamaHawk]

Thanks for the response LWTCS. I know that I will not be able to replicate (easily anyway) the aging of the big guys but I would have thought that the white dog would at least be somewhat close but maybe the difference is continuous versus batch distillation.

I will follow your recommendation and attempt to reduce the heat the next time but I didn't feel like it was running too hot at the time. I have a single element and ran most of the run at 14 amps (3080 watts) and vapor temp ranged between 88-90 (if the vapor temp even matters) on a 16 gallon boiler, for reference. As mentioned, my take-off was around 1.5-1.75 l/h, which I understand to be on the slower end for a 4" flute, and my defleg was almost completely shutdown just to get this speed but was on enough to keep all 4 plates loaded. If I run it any lower I would imagine that I would have to cut the defleg off completely (losing the loaded plates) and would still end up with a very slow run. I was under the impression that one of the benefits of the flute was a higher run rate, single and done, and retaining most of the flavor.

Does my parameters seem too hot in your opinion?

[BamaHawk]

Thanks for the response Bluefish!

Imho flavor comes from smearing. Too little and you have vodka, too much and it’s undrinkable. My theory is that the amount of impurities is your flavor. When you pull off at 195 proof, only 2.5% of what you get isn’t alcohol. At 130 proof it’s 35%. So the trick is to find the spot where you have enough separation that the spirit is clean enough after aging. I further think you need bolder/rougher spirits when you age. If it’s pretty clean, it won’t take long before the oak overpowers the spirit. A rougher one will take longer in the barrel to smooth out and the stronger flavors stand up to the oak. My official taster likened a good bourbon coming off the still as licking a grain bin.

This was my exact thinking/understanding and why I attempted to run it in the "bourbon range". I figured 140-160 proof would not be too low for sure. I was hoping to increase the flavor as compared to my first run. I would have been okay with the "licking a grain bin" flavor as that is what I would expect but it's more of the wet cardboard than grain IMO.

May be worth testing which makes better whiskey, more plates, less reflux or fewer plates, more reflux.

I may give this a shot for the next run. Instead of running 4 plates, drop down to 2 and see what happens.

[bluefish_dist]

Thanks for the response LWTCS. I know that I will not be able to replicate (easily anyway) the aging of the big guys but I would have thought that the white dog would at least be somewhat close but maybe the difference is continuous versus batch distillation.

I will follow your recommendation and attempt to reduce the heat the next time but I didn't feel like it was running too hot at the time. I have a single element and ran most of the run at 14 amps (3080 watts) and vapor temp ranged between 88-90 (if the vapor temp even matters) on a 16 gallon boiler, for reference. As mentioned, my take-off was around 1.5-1.75 l/h, which I understand to be on the slower end for a 4" flute, and my defleg was almost completely shutdown just to get this speed but was on enough to keep all 4 plates loaded. If I run it any lower I would imagine that I would have to cut the defleg off completely (losing the loaded plates) and would still end up with a very slow run. I was under the impression that one of the benefits of the flute was a higher run rate, single and done, and retaining most of the flavor.

Does my parameters seem too hot in your opinion?

Doesn’t seem too hot at all for a 4”. I usually run 5000+ on my 4”, but I seem to run a bit faster than most. For me time = $$ so as fast as possible. I do adjust reflux to hold a desired abv. That means takeoff slows during the run and will almost stop when reaching tails. I do this by watching temperature, but it can be done with a parrot as well.

[BamaHawk]

Doesn’t seem too hot at all for a 4”.

This was my thought as well. I felt like I was likely on the "cooler" side of the possibilities.

I do adjust reflux to hold a desired abv. That means takeoff slows during the run and will almost stop when reaching tails. I do this by watching temperature, but it can be done with a parrot as well.

This is what I attempted as well. I adjusted to hold between 140-160 which I know isn't a tight range but I chased it for a while until I could get it leveled out. I was using a parrot.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[LWTCS]

Temps and take off do seem fine.
Are you digging too deep?
You have to remember that the forced reflux will squeeze your abv pretty good.
For example, when the bulk of the ( my rum ) run is dialed in at 90%,,when you get to 89% its past time to pull the plug. You're into tails at that point.

[BamaHawk]

Are you digging too deep?
You have to remember that the forced reflux will squeeze your abv pretty good.
For example, when the bulk of the ( my rum ) run is dialed in at 90%,,when you get to 89% its past time to pull the plug. You're into tails at that point.

On my first run where I optimized my reflux, the example you mention above is exactly what I experienced. The majority of the run was very stable averaging 94% until the second from last jar where I dropped to 90% and the last jar crashed into the 60's before I shut it down. I could definitely smell and taste a difference between the last 94% jar and the first 90% jar.

The second run was stable between jars 3 to 13 (no amp, or reflux adjustments at all with steady ABV and vapor temps). Jar 14 I started seeing some declining ABV's into the 60% - 65% range and then further declining ABV, while increasing my amps, on jars 15 and 16. Jar 16 also started becoming cloudy so this is where I shut it down.

After letting the second run rest for 3 days I went in to start to blend and noticed fairly strong tails smell and taste all the way back to jar 5. My final blending decision was jars 3 - 13 because this seemed to be the most stable part of the run but there is a lot of tails coming through in most of those jars. If I had eliminated the jars that smelled/tasted of tails I probably wouldn't have had more than 2 keeper jars out of the 16.

I'm really at a loss on this one. I sure don't want to put a "bad" batch into my new barrel to age. I have the second run cut to 120 now and in gallon glass jugs. I think I may let it rest for another couple of weeks and revisit it to see if it's changed any. If not, I may try another batch with fewer plates (as Bluefish suggested) to see if there is any difference. If tails still come through as strongly I guess I will just increase the ABV of the next run and see if I can find a "happy medium" between the 94% first run which seemed to be lacking in flavor and the 65-80% second run and see how that turns out.

I appreciate everyone's responses and ideas. If you (or anyone else) have any other thoughts please let me know.

[Saltbush Bill]

Didn't notice there if you mentioned if the flute was perf plates or caps.
Power used seems excessive to me.......I would have said 2400-3200w to be more suitable.
Dragging tails has always been from to much power or two little reflux for me.
Going by your take off speed we can count to little reflux out I think.

[BamaHawk]

Didn't notice there if you mentioned if the flute was perf plates or caps.
Power used seems excessive to me.......I would have said 2400-3200w to be more suitable.
Dragging tails has always been from to much power or two little reflux for me.
Going by your take off speed we can count to little reflux out I think.

It's perf plates. I ran at 3080w so within your range it appears. I really don't think it was too much power but the reflux is an interesting thought. I had all 4 plates loaded but the reflux was barely on to get to the 1.5 - 1.75 l/h rate. Would it be better to increase my power, and to open up the defleg, in order to reflux more with a similar take-off speed? I'm really stumped at what I might have done wrong.

[Saltbush Bill]

Reflux barely on is how they run.........I doubt you will achieve anything worth while by upping the power.

[Yummyrum]

as I did in my first run, and then pulled off the foreshots and heads at a high abv (~94%). Once I felt like I was past the heads I reduced the defleg driving the ABV down

So effectively all that is left is clean hearts and tails .

Its kinda the reverse of how the commercial Bourbons and Rums ( in Australia at least ) are made .
As Larry said , most made by using a continuous stripping tower .
This process causes to tails to be mostly removed , all that is left is the heads and hearts . This is then run through a Pot still where a heads cut is done .

So instead of a very tight heads cut and a smeared tails cut like you effectively have done , the Commercial stuff has a smeared heads cut and a tight tails cut .

Perhaps you are cutting the wrong part of the flavour out .

[BamaHawk]

So effectively all that is left is clean hearts and tails .

Its kinda the reverse of how the commercial Bourbons and Rums ( in Australia at least ) are made .

So instead of a very tight heads cut and a smeared tails cut like you effectively have done , the Commercial stuff has a smeared heads cut and a tight tails cut .

Perhaps you are cutting the wrong part of the flavour out .

Thank you very much. This is an interesting concept. From what I have read on HD, I was always under the impression that heads are relatively "bad" and tails are okay in small quantities to add flavor but you're suggesting I keep the heads and try to get rid of the tails. This goes against what I thought was the correct way but maybe I've been mistaken in what I read.

What I don't understand is how to run to keep the tails out while still running sub 80% to meet the bourbon requirements. I can do this running at 93% plus but running at 70-80% is what got me the tails.

[Yummyrum]

Yes heads have always got a bad rap and the mention of keeping them is synonymous with inciting a riot.
How ever more and more distillers will admit to adding more heads as time has gone by simply because without them , the spirit lacks flavour and character .

Now sure there are guys that have bad reactions to heads and basically can’t drink much more than vodka .

But if you are chasing commercial style flavour , you have to add heads .... or certainly the late heads .

Now how to hold off tails while keeping a low ABV is a conumndum . and certainly something I struggle with making Rum on my Flute .

One thing I’ve often thought about but never tried is to collect everything until tails appears on the flute , then dilute it down and Pot still it .

[LWTCS]

So this is a good thread.
Good to marinate on everyone's input and just keep running every possible scenario till you find your best sweet spot.

So based on your last response to me, I'd say you waited too long to pull the plug because you didn't take into account how stable your hearts would be and then assumed you had good likker because your ABV was high.

But remember now, you ain't pot stilling. You are running forced reflux and as such your abv will be naturally stable till it dips. Once it dips you can be sure that you are well into the funk. It doesn't matter how high your abv is. It's the dip you need to look for,,,,,with a plated column.

Yep, heads are definitely demonized here at times.

[bluefish_dist]

I did find that running more plates with less reflux to keep the abv lower, did result in slightly less flavor. Hence why I ran fewer plates and more reflux. That seemed to delay tails and still give more flavor. Granted I never did a lot of testing since it gave me what I wanted and being commercial, big test batches get expensive.

[BamaHawk]

Yes heads have always got a bad rap and the mention of keeping them is synonymous with inciting a riot.
How ever more and more distillers will admit to adding more heads as time has gone by simply because without them , the spirit lacks flavour and character .

Thanks for clarifying. I actually enjoy the taste of some of my late heads but have tried to steer away from using them due to advice I've read. I'll probably start keeping a little more late heads for flavor purposes now.

Now how to hold off tails while keeping a low ABV is a conumndum . and certainly something I struggle with making Rum on my Flute .

I hate to say misery loves company but I am glad it wasn't just me struggling with this issue. I think I'm just going to have to run my flute at a higher ABV and quit trying to hit the "bourbon" definition. There may be some other processes I can try but based on responses to this thread there doesn't appear to be anything that stands out to be the problem, other than running a low ABV on a flute.

[BamaHawk]

So this is a good thread.
Good to marinate on everyone's input and just keep running every possible scenario till you find your best sweet spot.

I agree. A great thread with a lot of good ideas and years of experience. It definitely has given me many scenarios to try.

So based on your last response to me, I'd say you waited too long to pull the plug because you didn't take into account how stable your hearts would be and then assumed you had good likker because your ABV was high.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding or didn't explain my last comment well enough. I had tails that were smeared all the way back to jar #3. I'm not sure how I could have pulled it any earlier because I was barely past the heads when I started picking up tails.

But remember now, you ain't pot stilling. You are running forced reflux and as such your abv will be naturally stable till it dips. Once it dips you can be sure that you are well into the funk. It doesn't matter how high your abv is. It's the dip you need to look for,,,,,with a plated column.

My first dip didn't occur until the end of jar #14. Up to that point I was running very stable on ABV and had not made any adjustments to my run. The tails definitely became stronger at #14 and this was the reason I excluded jars 14 and beyond from blending. My issue is that even though jars 3-13 were less "offensive" they all still had the slight nose and taste of tails.

[BamaHawk]

I did find that running more plates with less reflux to keep the abv lower, did result in slightly less flavor. Hence why I ran fewer plates and more reflux. That seemed to delay tails and still give more flavor. Granted I never did a lot of testing since it gave me what I wanted and being commercial, big test batches get expensive.

I will give this a try as well. I'm still not sure if I will be able to keep it within the "bourbon" ABV without getting into tails but I'm assuming it has to be possible so I'm just going to start changing one variable at a time to see what difference it makes. I have plenty of flavor with 4 plates, it's just the wrong flavor in my opinion.

[Jimbo]

Here's a few thoughts after reading the thread. Good discussion.

Regarding smearing, do you have a nice proper flood on each plate? Aside from that its got to be either too much heat, or adding back too many feints. Remember the density of the tails accumulate run after run, especially if you do tricks like crank the defleg at the end to squeeze an extra quart of hearts out. I dont collect or recirculate tails after the 3rd run on a batch. I just shut off after my last acceptable keep jar on my 3rd run.

Regarding 94%. Thats a function of your # plates. I run 3 plates and it gives me 86% at first and drops through the run. My keep cut always seems to avg 80%. And its not because I'm a wizard at hitting 80% bourbon numbers, it just wants to run there, with 3 plates. Its happy place.

When you first start to notice tails, for my setup its when the head temp above the defleg hits 180F, turn up both your defleg and power a touch. It will scrub the last bits harder and you can stretch your keep cut. I can squeeze 1 more quart on a 25g tank using this trick.

On heads/tails, this is very subjective and what makes all our hooches unique. Both fruity esters from the yeast and a little spank come from the heads. I like a touch of both. But its a fine line, unlike with the cardboard tails funk, that heads spank doesnt go away with age.

[LWTCS]

That's a good post Jimbo.
Also, good to see you chime.
So your not dead then aye? Lol.

[Saltbush Bill]

I run 3 plates and it gives me 86% at first and drops through the run. My keep cut always seems to avg 80%. And its not because I'm a wizard at hitting 80% bourbon numbers, it just wants to run there, with 3 plates. Its happy place.

Good advice, trying to push a plated column out of its happy zone to achieve an ABV of your own liking rarely ever ends well from my experience.
Its easier to remove or add plates to get roughly the desired ABV and let the still run where it is happy.

[LWTCS]

Any still for that matter.
Just seems to be a sweet spot.
Also, Jimbo is still among us....

[Saltbush Bill]

That's the part that has always baffled me Larry, people accept the fact that reflux stills, Boka, VMs and the like, also pots stills have a sweet spot where they run best,and produce a good product, but then you see people trying to push plated columns to do things that they don't want to do.

[LWTCS]

I know what you mean Bill.
Though I don't think the OP was trying to push too hard. Only trying to find some direction.

I know I'm personally guilty of pushing too hard and writing
about it in the early days. So it doesn't suprise me if that is a technique used without regard for a legitimate point of view.

For me was just about seeing how many pony tricks I could make my still do.
And to be fair, everything my plated still did was always better than the stove top I started with.

[acfixer69]

I run 3 plates and it gives me 86% at first and drops through the run. My keep cut always seems to avg 80%. And its not because I'm a wizard at hitting 80% bourbon numbers, it just wants to run there, with 3 plates. Its happy place.

Good advice, trying to push a plated column out of its happy zone to achieve an ABV of your own liking rarely ever ends well from my experience.
Its easier to remove or add plates to get roughly the desired ABV and let the still run where it is happy.

I have to agree. It was one of the original reasons plated columns when modular. It was a good alternative to plate un-loaders. You find the sweet spot by running each configuration not forcing the set up to act unbalanced.

[Saltbush Bill]

Wasnt pointing the finger at the OP
Just saying Ive seen a lot of stuff on different forums of people saying they are trying to make plated columns work that way.

[Jimbo]

That's a good post Jimbo.
Also, good to see you chime.
So your not dead then aye? Lol.

Thanks Larry. Nope not dead yet, haha. I still poke around here occasionally. HD and the crew here always has has a spot in my heart. The few times I saw a thread to chime in on it was already on page 12 and anything Id have to say was said. There's some strong knowledge on here. Caught this one on page 1

Yes I agree 'all' stills have a sweet zone where they want to run. You should never force something on a still, a temp, a takeoff rate, trying to achieve an ABV, none of it. Fruitless. Let it tell you what it wants to do. Potstills are even less forgiving if you mistreat them. I think its always a good idea to run your still boundary to boundary to learn it. Youll know quickly what makes her happy and then things seem to run effortless after you learn how she likes it If youve done that and dont like the result, then either make a hardware adjustment, or try a different recipe.

[bluefish_dist]

That's the part that has always baffled me Larry, people accept the fact that reflux stills, Boka, VMs and the like, also pots stills have a sweet spot where they run best,and produce a good product, but then you see people trying to push plated columns to do things that they don't want to do.

I agree 100%. That’s why I started changing the still when I wanted to make something different instead of changing its tuning. Find that sweet spot for your spirit by changing confirmation instead of just changing reflux or power to change output.

I also found that I could delay tails a little at the end of the run by lowering power once reflux was as high as I could make it and have still have takeoff.