Turning Whiskey Feints "Neutral"

[Avalir]

I'll start by saying that I hope I'm posting this in the right area.
Effectively the goal isn't to "flavor," so to speak, but rather to change the taste by removing flavor and furthermore to (hopefully) improve yield.
Background: I've always re-run all my whiskey feints in my second spirit run to try to recover a portion of the good stuff left behind. I'll usually make a generous foreshot cut to all runs I do. However, I keep accumulating more and more feints and it's at the point that I'm filling my boiler to the brim and I'd rather that space hold my actual wash. My options as I see then are either wider cuts and toss in the fire starter jug, or to set aside the worst of the heads to reflux; I'm leaning towards the later.
For running with my plated column and reflux, I figure it would be best to take the first 3 pints (roughly) from my whiskey spirit runs and set them aside until I have enough to make a reflux run worthwhile. After some brief research I saw stuff on letting it rest with either sodium carbonate or even bicarbonate (baking soda)--it seems the reaction would potentially break down the ethyl-acetate and improve my ethanol yield.
So I guess my questions are: is this a good way to go about recycling what would otherwise be waste; am I better off refluxing without first resting with additives; and is it really that much of a difference that I opt for sodium carbonate over baking soda?

[Hambone]

You could just do an all feints run. Sometimes the outcome is very interesting.

If you want to make neutral, a packed column of sufficient size is the way to go. I don’t do anything to alter my feints.

[Rrmuf]

+1. All feints run with packed column can make a perfectly fine neutral. OR feed it into your next stripping run.
NB. Some people don't like to use the feints at all.

[Dr Griz]

I’ll happily defer to the chemists, but my experience with all-feints runs is that the amounts of nail polish remover in heads is enough to ruin the taste, but doesn’t accumulate enough from run to run to worry about — I seem to get about the same amount of heads regardless. I reckon that even if you could somehow salvage all of the acetate as ethanol, it wouldn’t make a perceptible difference in the amount of usable product.

Just run ‘er!

[Tom Kat]

+1. All feints run with packed column can make a perfectly fine neutral. OR feed it into your next stripping run.
NB. Some people don't like to use the feints at all.

This is what I do, run a couple of gallons with a stripping run. It comes out pretty good.

[IMALOSERSCUMBAG]

I'm interested in thoughts on alcohol % of the feints in the boiler? I have heard a few numbers thrown around as safe percentages. Mainly anything under 40% alcohol should be safe to run? I believe the flash point is 55% so that's why the 40 is sticking out for me.

FWIW, use an electric heating element inside the boiler. Any reason this would make it more dangerous running at 40% or so?

[jonnys_spirit]

Part of it is the explosive nature of vapor ethanol and oxygen. Even with a 40% charge the vapor is still high proof and very flammable. The 40% charge would not typically be flammable and as a run progresses that charge ABV drops so it becomes increasingly less flammable. Higher proof in the boiler leads to a larger window of time where danger of explosive activity is increased.

Another point to consider is the amount of water left once all the ETOH has been distilled and potential to dry fire the element. 40% charge is 60%water where say for example an 80%abv charge is only going to leave about 20% the charge volume of water or stillage in the boiler...

EDIT:
15+ gallons of 40% is plenty dangerous so we look to minimize wherever possible.
Cooling failure leads to high proof ETOH vapor leaks into the space/shed mixed with O2 - Boom!
Blockage of the vapor path leads to increasing pressure in the boiler which eventually results in a rupture and high velocity high proof ETOH vapor leak - Boom!
Joints and unions in the vapor path are potential leak points - Check for leaks regularly throughout a run.

[Rrmuf]

I'm interested in thoughts on alcohol % of the feints in the boiler? I have heard a few numbers thrown around as safe percentages. Mainly anything under 40% alcohol should be safe to run? I believe the flash point is 55% so that's why the 40 is sticking out for me.

FWIW, use an electric heating element inside the boiler. Any reason this would make it more dangerous running at 40% or so?

With an internal element, you just need to forecast and account for remaining volume at the end of the run. I just assume the element CANNOT be allowed to be exposed to the vapour. It must be well covered at the end of the run.

E.g. IN MY CASE, I always plan to have OVER 6 liters left in the bottom of the still at the end of the run which, depending on the ABV of the initial boiler load (never over 40%), and the anticipated pull off rate (e.g. 80%)), I usually require a min ~12l initial load.

- Stripping runs are never an issue because my fermentor volume is always over 20l.
- Reflux runs are never outtake is pretty high ABV so I could probably get away with an 8l load @40% BUT I usually wait until I can reflux 25l.
- Spirit runs are a bit more variable depending on what I am doing. I do alot of Odin Gin runs where you only take the first 40% by volume, so
that is pretty simple to figure out.

If I have anything close, I either pull out the calculator or better yet, just add water or wait for another stripped load to contribute.

[IMALOSERSCUMBAG]

The not exposed to the vapor makes since considering that is what actually lights. In reality there is heat but no spark. I didn't think of it this way.

I have a 26 gallon (98L) boiler. My plan is to fill to about 20 gallons (75L) at 40% so at best run I wouldn't pull enough alcohol out to expose the element.

[Rrmuf]

The not exposed to the vapor makes since considering that is what actually lights. In reality there is heat but no spark. I didn't think of it this way.

I have a 26 gallon (98L) boiler. My plan is to fill to about 20 gallons (75L) at 40% so at best run I wouldn't pull enough alcohol out to expose the element.

True, but whenever I deal with anything electrical, I consider the possibility of a spark due to a fault, etc. Perhaps, it is over-cautious.

[Demy]

I suggest a race on a reflux column, I do it many times and get a great result.

[shadylane]

Run the feints in a reflux still.
If it ain't neutral enough, dilute it and run it again.

[NZChris]

I've recently tried cleaning up my nastiest of nasties as an experiment. The jars were labeled foreshots, fuel, feints and sanitizer. The collection stunk of Ethyl acetate and tails.

The pH was 6.5 and I added slaked lime daily for 9 days, when it finally made pH 7.5. Filtered the precipitate, then ran it through a Bokakob at 95%, getting exactly 2/3rds of the original ethanol back as very fine neutral heart cut.

How well it would have worked if it was purely whiskey feints would be interesting. I just sniffed the jug and I can't identify anything that would have been in the collection.

[BrewinBrian44]

From doing many bourbon mashes and adding feints, I’ve had much better results only saving my tails feints (flavor!) and maybe a single late heads jar if I’m going to add them to my next run. I’ve found that recycling heads jars only extends the run time and you don’t really recover enough extra hearts out of them to make it worthwhile. (Pot Still or 4 plates)

Using tails feints can add more hearts AND concentrated tasty flavors to subsequent runs, not so with heads.

If you’re worried about building up too many feints over time and overfilling your boiler, either use Shady’s suggestion of refluxing the crap out of them to make neutral, or keep the heads/tails feints in separate containers, only recycling the tails. You can keep the heads to make neutral.

I personally just throw away the heads jars or use them for fire starter as I don’t have a lot of extra time to make neutral stuff.

[NZChris]

I personally just throw away the heads jars or use them for fire starter as I don’t have a lot of extra time to make neutral stuff.

I personally keep them together with new, or used, oak dominos, then run them with some fresh wash when I have collected enough. It's made me some fine product, well worth aging, but it usually gets drunk early to keep me out of my prime heart cut.

[TwoSheds]

The pH was 6.5 and I added slaked lime daily for 9 days, when it finally made pH 7.5. Filtered the precipitate, then ran it through a Bokakob at 95%, getting exactly 2/3rds of the original ethanol back as very fine neutral heart cut.

Chris, why did you adjust the pH? I have not heard of anyone adjusting pH in feints or low wines before running them.

[still_stirrin]

The pH was 6.5 and I added slaked lime daily for 9 days, when it finally made pH 7.5. Filtered the precipitate, then ran it through a Bokakob at 95%, getting exactly 2/3rds of the original ethanol back as very fine neutral heart cut.

Chris, why did you adjust the pH? I have not heard of anyone adjusting pH in feints or low wines before running them.

If you search, you’ll find many distillers add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to the low wines. When heated, it reacts with the acids in the low wines producing ethyl alcohol and water. But don’t try this with a wash, only add it to the low wines. If you add baking soda to the wash, it can react with other constituents in the wash complicating the chemical reaction.

Here: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 3&start=30
ss

[TwoSheds]

Thanks Chris! Looks interesting. There's always another trick...

[Crabmanstyle]

That’s not being over cautious at all. In Hazloc or ATEX installations this could be dealt with by use of “increased safety” principles. Get a shaky live or hot wire that touches or arcs the still and you have a potential bang. Best case is that it shorts to earth and trips with no consequences.

In saying all that you need oxygen as well as fuel and an ignition source and I’m not sure what % if any oxygen is inside a running still.

The not exposed to the vapor makes since considering that is what actually lights. In reality there is heat but no spark. I didn't think of it this way.

I have a 26 gallon (98L) boiler. My plan is to fill to about 20 gallons (75L) at 40% so at best run I wouldn't pull enough alcohol out to expose the element.

True, but whenever I deal with anything electrical, I consider the possibility of a spark due to a fault, etc. Perhaps, it is over-cautious.

[Saltbush Bill]

In saying all that you need oxygen as well as fuel and an ignition source and I’m not sure what % if any oxygen is inside a running still.

This subject has come up many times......my understanding is that on heat up there is quite a bit of oxygen in the boiler........once the still is running there is very little to none , its all ethanol and other alcohol vapours.
Theoretically if anything were going to happen it would be earlier while bringing the still up to temp.

[Sporacle]

That's pretty much it, on startup too much oxygen not enough volitailes, as the volitailes replace the oxygen on heat up it hits a point (Stoichiometric point) were the volatailes are in a range were they can support combustion based on the oxygen percentage, whether this happens is based on an ignition source being present ( flash point) or it actually reaches its auto ignition temperature ( no spark required) the vapours AIT is pretty high and they are mostly above the mix required when this happens (heaps of vapour very little oxygen as he mash or wash boils). That's a very simplified version and chemists will poke many holes in it but it works in laymen's terms

[Deplorable]

That's pretty much it, on startup too much oxygen not enough volitailes, as the volitailes replace the oxygen on heat up it hits a point (Stoichiometric point) were the volatailes are in a range were they can support combustion based on the oxygen percentage, whether this happens is based on an ignition source being present ( flash point) or it actually reaches its auto ignition temperature ( no spark required) the vapours AIT is pretty high and they are mostly above the mix required when this happens (heaps of vapour very little oxygen as he mash or wash boils). That's a very simplified version and chemists will poke many holes in it but it works in laymen's terms

There's a word I never thought Id see used in a distilling topic.

[Rrmuf]

That's pretty much it, on startup too much oxygen not enough volitailes, as the volitailes replace the oxygen on heat up it hits a point (Stoichiometric point) were the volatailes are in a range were they can support combustion based on the oxygen percentage, whether this happens is based on an ignition source being present ( flash point) or it actually reaches its auto ignition temperature ( no spark required) the vapours AIT is pretty high and they are mostly above the mix required when this happens (heaps of vapour very little oxygen as he mash or wash boils). That's a very simplified version and chemists will poke many holes in it but it works in laymen's terms

There's a word I never thought Id see used in a distilling topic.

SO, to the average reader here, you can either read up on Stoichiometric and it's implications for the safe operation of your still,
OR, just make sure your boiler load is sufficient to ensure your internal heating element is NEVER exposed to the vapours.

[Sporacle]

It's just the point at which the stuff will burn based on the percentages and temps present, I was just using it to try and explain why you can have high levels of volatiles and heat and oxygen present and no boom. Keep him covered is the simple and sound advice