Need Help with Gin Run ABV and Boiler Charge

[artooks]

Hi Everyone,


After reading several threads about gin run, Odin recommends that the gin run should be between 75-80 ABV during distillation, he also tells that 30 ABV charge in the boiler is an optimum charge which outputs a less dry product, well, In my case with my still and I mainly follows OEG recipe I take it as a reference to make my gins, but with my specific still, I always get an end product around 88% ABV which is very dry, Odin tells that above 85 the gin will be stripped from its taste profile, I am attaching my still that I use well after the boiler it has a total height of 47" and I usually charge it with 43% ABV so in order to lower this should I :

1) take out the 36" column and leave it with a 11" height, If I just do that what would be the alcohol output in this case is there a calculator, by the way my column is 2" long

2) Should I also lower the boiler charge by the way what would be the effect to charge the gin run with 30% ABV vs 43%ABV can someone please explain this to me.

After making the last 2 batches I like the boiler charge method but I think I want a lighter gin to go with Tonic, in this case do you think vapor infusion is the way to go ? after sniffing and tasting bombay tanquarey I find out that the gins that I made has a strong taste and after trying my gin and then trying these commercial gins, I have the feeling that they are just like vodka, but with a very light juniper taste. Thanks

[howie]

odin also says that to obtain a more mellow gin but with flavour.
(apparently not all botanicals will give up their taste with 30%)
so for a mellow gin, he recommends macerating the botanicals overnight at 60% to extract more flavour, then dilute to 30% in the still.

i'm thinking to run it faster and/or reduce the height would lower the abv, one of the other guys could advise.

[still_stirrin]

Should I :

1) take out the 36" column and leave it with a 11" height, If I just do that what would be the alcohol output in this case is there a calculator, by the way my column is 2" long... <— Do you pack the column (“riser”, if not)? If you do, then eliminating the column would have an effect on product proof. If unpacked, then reducing the riser height would have very little effect on the proof at the spout.

2) Should I also lower the boiler charge by the way what would be the effect to charge the gin run with 30% ABV vs 43%ABV can someone please explain this to me...<— You only want the product proof to lower a few % points. So, the relationship of input to output is approximately linear. Your still is like an “amplifier”, increasing the purity in a proportional manner. Lowering the boiler charge %ABV from 43% to 38% will produce (approximately) a 5% reduction in product proof (with all things being the same, including operational parameters). But, consider that the collection speed/vapor production rate has much to do with how water will carry over to the product condenser with the alcohol.

So, an easier approach to lowering the purity might be to simply “run the boiler harder”. Try it.

posted with Howie.
ss

[Andrew_90]

I am far from expert but have produced some nice Gin based on Odin's recipe.

My final run is through a pot still to retain flavour and limit ABV output. I macerate all components for 2 weeks before staining and distilling. I charged the boiler with 39% and got 79% out on average. I then cut it back to 45% ABV for consumption.

You can get a Pot Still from your configuration. Why don't you try that?

[Rrmuf]

should I :

1) take out the 36" column and leave it with a 11" height, If I just do that what would be the alcohol output in this case is there a calculator, by the way my column is 2" long

2) Should I also lower the boiler charge by the way what would be the effect to charge the gin run with 30% ABV vs 43%ABV can someone please explain this to me.

To provide opinion on your questions directly:

#1 Yes. I do think I would remove the 36incher.

#2 I have had great results running an OEG style Gin load at 40%. I usually end up at 81% over the course of the first 40% VOLUME. But the beginning of it is usually approx. 84%-85%

[artooks]

Should I :

1) take out the 36" column and leave it with a 11" height, If I just do that what would be the alcohol output in this case is there a calculator, by the way my column is 2" long... <— Do you pack the column (“riser”, if not)? If you do, then eliminating the column would have an effect on product proof. If unpacked, then reducing the riser height would have very little effect on the proof at the spout.

2) Should I also lower the boiler charge by the way what would be the effect to charge the gin run with 30% ABV vs 43%ABV can someone please explain this to me...<— You only want the product proof to lower a few % points. So, the relationship of input to output is approximately linear. Your still is like an “amplifier”, increasing the purity in a proportional manner. Lowering the boiler charge %ABV from 43% to 38% will produce (approximately) a 5% reduction in product proof (with all things being the same, including operational parameters). But, consider that the collection speed/vapor production rate has much to do with how water will carry over to the product condenser with the alcohol.

So, an easier approach to lowering the purity might be to simply “run the boiler harder”. Try it.

posted with Howie.
ss

Dear Still Stirrin, thank you for your answers, No I do not pack my column, I use my still as a reflux CCVM still and cap it and use it as a pot still,
so what you are saying is even if I take out the 36" column do you think that it will not reduce the output purity ? so basically what you are saying is that just to play with the collection speed by increasing the vapor speed by running the still harder, but I thought with the gin run things should run slower to receive a better product, so don't you think increasing the vapor speed could have a negative effect on the taste ?

[artooks]

should I :

1) take out the 36" column and leave it with a 11" height, If I just do that what would be the alcohol output in this case is there a calculator, by the way my column is 2" long

2) Should I also lower the boiler charge by the way what would be the effect to charge the gin run with 30% ABV vs 43%ABV can someone please explain this to me.

To provide opinion on your questions directly:

#1 Yes. I do think I would remove the 36incher.

#2 I have had great results running an OEG style Gin load at 40%. I usually end up at 81% over the course of the first 40% VOLUME. But the beginning of it is usually approx. 84%-85%

Thank you for your answer Rrmuf, Can I ask you how tall is your still ?

[artooks]

odin also says that to obtain a more mellow gin but with flavour.
(apparently not all botanicals will give up their taste with 30%)
so for a mellow gin, he recommends macerating the botanicals overnight at 60% to extract more flavour, then dilute to 30% in the still.

i'm thinking to run it faster and/or reduce the height would lower the abv, one of the other guys could advise.

Thank you Howie, do you charge the boiler @ 30 pecent if so how do you find the outcome ?

[artooks]

Thank you everyone,


From the answer that you gave I will try the following.

1) Take out the 36" column
2) Charge the boiler with %35 ABV this will increase the volume by 57 fl oz, the total volume of my boiler is 3 gallon which is 382 fl oz and I will be charging it with 305 fl oz, I hope this won't be a problem we will see.
3) Run it faster than usual as Still Stirrin suggested


So I guess this will solve the problem. Thanks.

[Rrmuf]

should I :

1) take out the 36" column and leave it with a 11" height, If I just do that what would be the alcohol output in this case is there a calculator, by the way my column is 2" long

2) Should I also lower the boiler charge by the way what would be the effect to charge the gin run with 30% ABV vs 43%ABV can someone please explain this to me.

To provide opinion on your questions directly:

#1 Yes. I do think I would remove the 36incher.

#2 I have had great results running an OEG style Gin load at 40%. I usually end up at 81% over the course of the first 40% VOLUME. But the beginning of it is usually approx. 84%-85%

Thank you for your answer Rrmuf, Can I ask you how tall is your still ?

On a Gin run, typically 8". This time I am using a 15" collumn. .... We will see how that goes.

[still_stirrin]

...what you are saying is even if I take out the 36" column do you think that it will not reduce the output purity ?

Exactly. Without reflux (and column packing), you won’t get much, if any additional purity in the product. It will behave just like a “regular potstill”, regardless of the riser height. Oh, it might take a little longer to start production to the product condenser, but other than that it will be unaffected.

...so basically what you are saying is that just to play with the collection speed by increasing the vapor speed by running the still harder, but I thought with the gin run things should run slower to receive a better product, so don't you think increasing the vapor speed could have a negative effect on the taste ?

You’re still distilling a maceration, right? And the flavor will be indicative of that maceration. Operating with more power input will simply entrain more water into the vapors, just like when stripping with a potstill. As a result, you’ll get more water (lower purity) at the spout.

But the botanicals will be the same due to the maceration process, ie - botanicals used and their amounts as well as the strength of the alcohol used in the maceration. Those are the primary drivers for the expression of the botanicals in the product. But you will likely have them “moderated” by the lower purity of distillate coming over.

I thought that this was your desire, according to your original post. Correct?
ss

[artooks]

...what you are saying is even if I take out the 36" column do you think that it will not reduce the output purity ?

Exactly. Without reflux (and column packing), you won’t get much, if any additional purity in the product. It will behave just like a “regular potstill”, regardless of the riser height. Oh, it might take a little longer to start production to the product condenser, but other than that it will be unaffected.

So to sum this up, even I take out the empty 36" column the purity will still be 88% ABV so as far as I understand vapor speed and the boiler charge will have an effect here, the reason that I asked this is because most of the pot stills are shorter so I suspected this could be the culprit.

...so basically what you are saying is that just to play with the collection speed by increasing the vapor speed by running the still harder, but I thought with the gin run things should run slower to receive a better product, so don't you think increasing the vapor speed could have a negative effect on the taste ?

You’re still distilling a maceration, right? And the flavor will be indicative of that maceration. Operating with more power input will simply entrain more water into the vapors, just like when stripping with a potstill. As a result, you’ll get more water (lower purity) at the spout.

But the botanicals will be the same due to the maceration process, ie - botanicals used and their amounts as well as the strength of the alcohol used in the maceration. Those are the primary drivers for the expression of the botanicals in the product. But you will likely have them “moderated” by the lower purity of distillate coming over.

I only macerate for 20-24 hrs and then I chuck everything in the boiler, so are you referring to macerations for a day still ok to extract flavors and then will be ok to run it faster.

I thought that this was your desire, according to your original post. Correct?
ss

[still_stirrin]

...what you are saying is even if I take out the 36" column do you think that it will not reduce the output purity ?

Exactly. Without reflux (and column packing), you won’t get much, if any additional purity in the product. It will behave just like a “regular potstill”, regardless of the riser height. Oh, it might take a little longer to start production to the product condenser, but other than that it will be unaffected.

So to sum this up, even (if) I take out the empty 36" column, the purity will still be 88% ABV (+/-), so as far as I understand, vapor speed and the boiler charge will have an effect here, the reason that I asked this is because most of the pot stills are shorter so I suspected this could be the culprit. <— “height” on a potstill is a “matter of convenience”, not purity.

...so basically what you are saying is that just to play with the collection speed by increasing the vapor speed by running the still harder, but I thought with the gin run things should run slower to receive a better product, so don't you think increasing the vapor speed could have a negative effect on the taste ?

You’re still distilling a maceration, right? And the flavor will be indicative of that maceration. Operating with more power input will simply entrain more water into the vapors, just like when stripping with a potstill. As a result, you’ll get more water (lower purity) at the spout.

But the botanicals will be the same due to the maceration process, ie - botanicals used and their amounts as well as the strength of the alcohol used in the maceration. Those are the primary drivers for the expression of the botanicals in the product. But you will likely have them “moderated” by the lower purity of distillate coming over.

I only macerate for 20-24 hrs and then I chuck everything in the boiler, so are you referring to macerations for a day still ok to extract flavors and then (they?) will be ok to run it faster.<— Yes. But they (the flavor & aroma) may be “tempered” by purity...because of the additional water entrained into your product.

I thought that this was your desire, according to your original post. Correct?
ss

Extracted artooks response, for clarity to other follow-on readers.

[howie]

odin also says that to obtain a more mellow gin but with flavour.
(apparently not all botanicals will give up their taste with 30%)
so for a mellow gin, he recommends macerating the botanicals overnight at 60% to extract more flavour, then dilute to 30% in the still.

i'm thinking to run it faster and/or reduce the height would lower the abv, one of the other guys could advise.

Thank you Howie, do you charge the boiler @ 30 pecent if so how do you find the outcome ?

no i haven't tried that yet, but i one day i will dabble more with different abv
i'm still trying to get my head around the basics first.
there's an interesting thread i got that method from, i copied most of the thread into my gin reference folder.
the section on 'alcohol strength' is where Odin talks about mellow gin.
https://adiforums.com/topic/7910-odin-on-gin/

[drummstikk]

Just following up here:

Each foot of height on a 2" diameter column adds about a quarter theoretical plate of separation. This is because the air outside the column is cooler than the vapor inside, which cools the copper column, which in turn cools the vapor. Vapor condenses on the walls of the column, and then re-boils. This, in effect, adds theoretical plates to the still.

If you doubt this, take a look at the copper pot stills used in Scottish whiskey distilleries. They take great care in determining the diameter and height of their stills. These still are often only cooled by air, yet the column height and shape matter. Most of these stills have about 1.5-2 theoretical plates. The pot counts as one, and the column adds another 0.5-1 theoretical plates.

You can measure this effect yourself. Build a pot still with a 3 foot column, fill with 25% ABV charge, and then measure the ABV of the initial takeoff. You will see that the initial takeoff is higher than the 71-72% that is predicted from a one-plate distillation. Now cut off 6 inches from the column and repeat. You will see that the initial takeoff is now a bit less. You can "tune" a pot still to replicate a commercial pot still, say one found in Scotland, by repeating this procedure until your pot still produces an initial takeoff more than expected for a 1-plate still, but less than expected for a 2-plate still.

So, the column height on a pot still isn't just for placing the takeoff at a convenient height. It materially affects the product you make.