Amylase vs Malted Grains

[StillGate]

Do I understand correctly that if I plan on using amylase that I don't need any malted grains? This is for a corn mash that is just using supermarket ingredients. TIA

[rubberduck71]

Do I understand correctly that if I plan on using amylase that I don't need any malted grains? This is for a corn mash that is just using supermarket ingredients. TIA

Correct, but you'll still have to adjust to proper temps for it to work.

I used Yellow Label Angel yeast on corn meal & after proper aging, even a whiskey snob friend of mine liked it.

Unit pricing considered, amylase likely a cheaper price point, but the Yellow Label stuff works at room temp on grain. Whatever voodoo is in it, it takes all the hassle out of things!

[elbono]

Pinto covered the enzyme process well in his video. I used sebstar/sebamyl but the ferm solutions stuff looks a lot more affordable and people here say they work well .

I'm on the angel yeast train with rubber duck and others, I have tried cooked corn and angel, great and finished in about a week. Hot water, corn and angel, great and finished a couple of days later. Room temp water, corn and angel finished in a couple of weeks. All with cracked or milled feed store corn, at $12 for 50 lbs I'll drive to the feed store.

The only one I judge questionable is whole corn and angel, it smelled like poo on the third day, I sealed it up to finish and haven't had the gumption to open it up and see what happened.

My learning process:
1. Modern science, corn and enzymes, works good pH seemed important for the sebamyl step.
2. Traditional, corn and malted barley, works good. Takes a bit more time to get negative (good) starch test.
3. Ancient Chinese, WOW, takes a bit of patience for it to finish but no gooey mush involved.

[psf]

I'm switching from sugar washes to AG w/ Ferm enzymes and then Angel. I'm going to work with the enzymes first since it's still a little cool here over night. I've got a package of Angel that I'm going to use once the heat cranks up here in a few months. Excited to try a AG product off the still.

[Salt Must Flow]

1# Amylase was $14.99 when I bought it and this is said to be high temp Alpha Amylase if I recall correctly. Alpha Amylase is so affordable I also bought the Gluco Amylase too. 50# of grain only needs 7.56 grams of Alpha for full conversion. 1# of Alpha Amylase converts 1,000 # of grain. 1# of Angel Yeast is like $40. I don't know how much is needed for pitching and conversion. I just don't get the attraction to overpriced yeast other than being able to pitch cold, wait longer and pay much much more for it. Warmer a bit faster. Is full conversion questionable?

[StillGate]

1# Amylase was $14.99 when I bought it and this is said to be high temp Alpha Amylase if I recall correctly. Alpha Amylase is so affordable I also bought the Gluco Amylase too. 50# of grain only needs 7.56 grams of Alpha for full conversion. 1# of Alpha Amylase converts 1,000 # of grain. 1# of Angel Yeast is like $40. I don't know how much is needed for pitching and conversion. I just don't get the attraction to overpriced yeast other than being able to pitch cold, wait longer and pay much much more for it. Warmer a bit faster. Is full conversion questionable?

I bought the below. I assume they are mostly all the same?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9NQYQR

[Salt Must Flow]

1# Amylase was $14.99 when I bought it and this is said to be high temp Alpha Amylase if I recall correctly. Alpha Amylase is so affordable I also bought the Gluco Amylase too. 50# of grain only needs 7.56 grams of Alpha for full conversion. 1# of Alpha Amylase converts 1,000 # of grain. 1# of Angel Yeast is like $40. I don't know how much is needed for pitching and conversion. I just don't get the attraction to overpriced yeast other than being able to pitch cold, wait longer and pay much much more for it. Warmer a bit faster. Is full conversion questionable?

I bought the below. I assume they are mostly all the same?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9NQYQR

Here's the topic where I first read about it supposedly working well at higher temp than normal or recommended. Those enzymes all look the same to me. For all I know they could be all from the same manufacturer.

[Demy]

My preference ranking is: 1) all malt or at least half malt 2) mash with enzymes 3) angel yeast ... often the fastest process is not the best.

[elbono]

1# of Angel Yeast is like $40. I don't know how much is needed for pitching and conversion. I just don't get the attraction to overpriced yeast other than being able to pitch cold

I've seen various instructions for the angel yeast. I'm following these instructions "IV. Application: II) Application of raw materials". 100kg of flour grain ... directly add 0.5-0.8kg of Angel leaven, which leads to a corn/yeast ratio of 150. That means the 500 gm bag will dose well over 150 pounds of corn. If you are willing to deal with aliexpress it's about 40 USD for two bags.

It isn't cheap, the attraction for me is elimination of the mashing process. Almost all of my mashes with either enzymes or malted barley ended up being two day processes and I never felt I got total sacrification though I was pretty close judging by iodine.

With the angel yeast I can easily mix up twice as much corn in 1/4 the time. No wondering if I got the conversion right which is big for a noob like me.

I grind the corn into a plastic bag in a bin and toss in water and angel yeast, no need to boil water, cook corn, stir mush, wait, test, etc, etc. I can process in 15-20 pound batches this way and my mash pot size limits me to 7-8 pound batches if I mash.

If you cook the corn or use hot water the ferment time is very comparable to mashing and the corn/yeast ratio is 250:1 With cold water does take about twice as long and you use more yeast.

My benchmark for alcohol from corn has been 1 gallon from 26 pounds of corn and I get close to than with mashing, with angel yeast I get more!

I plan on playing with enzymes and barley but the last couple of batches were angel yeast and I wasn't disappointed the results.

[Demy]

I have said this several times, in my opinion 'a gelatinization of starches is still necessary, in fact some Chinese instructions say to pour hot water then let it cool down to yeast temperature, I interpret it as a simplified gelatinization (and more attractive for the customer)

[Deplorable]

My preference ranking is: 1) all malt or at least half malt 2) mash with enzymes 3) angel yeast ... often the fastest process is not the best.

+1
I'd consider it a lazy way. That's likely to offend some of the Angle yeast fanboys on here, but... You know what they say: "No, lazy man ever made good whiskey."

[Swamptrout]

Definitely not a fanboy but the other thing to consider with the angel yeast (which most members neglect) is the cost of the equipment needed for a traditional mash. Assuming you already have the gear then go for it, but someone new to AG like me i have a still and fermenter only.

Using the angel yeast i dont need to buy any additional equipment and that keeps the wife happy.

I get to play with AG to see if i like it before investing my hard earned

[shadylane]

I bought the below. I assume they are mostly all the same?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9NQYQR

Not picking on you
Looks like that's 94% dextrose and only 4% enzymes.

On a side note.
Instead of Amylase vs Malted Grains
I prefer enzymes and malted grain.

[TwoSheds]

Definitely not a fanboy but the other thing to consider with the angel yeast (which most members neglect) is the cost of the equipment needed for a traditional mash. Assuming you already have the gear then go for it, but someone new to AG like me i have a still and fermenter only.

Using the angel yeast i dont need to buy any additional equipment and that keeps the wife happy.

I get to play with AG to see if i like it before investing my hard earned

I'm new to AG, and don't make beer at all. It seems like with careful planning, a good cooking thermometer, a sizable kettle, and some blankets you can pull off AG mashes pretty effectively.

All that said it's not a cheap hobby for sure! Sugar washes and UJSSM taught me a LOT and also make for a good lower price introduction to your equipment.

[Deplorable]

Definitely not a fanboy but the other thing to consider with the angel yeast (which most members neglect) is the cost of the equipment needed for a traditional mash. Assuming you already have the gear then go for it, but someone new to AG like me i have a still and fermenter only.

Using the angel yeast i dont need to buy any additional equipment and that keeps the wife happy.

I get to play with AG to see if i like it before investing my hard earned

I guess I don't understand what additional equipment you need for a traditional mash that you don't need for a angle yeast mash of the same size.
I boil water add to grains in a suitable size vessel for the mash size. Stir, and monitor temps and add enzymes or malts at the appropriate temperature.

[Swamptrout]

Don't need a HLT, gas burner, mash tun, thermometer, insulation.

I put grain in fermenter, add water and angel yeast. Done

[shadylane]

Don't need a HLT, gas burner, mash tun, thermometer, insulation.

I put grain in fermenter, add water and angel yeast. Done

The devil is in the details.
With angel yeast everything must happen at the same temp.
And that isn't hot enough to uncoil all starch , for enzymes to nibble into fermentable pieces.

[Demy]

Don't need a HLT, gas burner, mash tun, thermometer, insulation.

I put grain in fermenter, add water and angel yeast. Done

The devil is in the details.
With angel yeast everything must happen at the same temp.
And that isn't hot enough to uncoil all starch , for enzymes to nibble into fermentable pieces.

Exactly. The explanation of the angel yeast "Add hot water" is a simplification of gelatinization. In one of the packages I read as a gluco-amylase ingredient and this explains many things. Yeast Angelo is a mixture of yeast and substances that attack the starch. For a "for distillers" mash they don't need complicated equipment for strength ... if you think about it a pot, a blanket and an economic thermometer could be sufficient. Don't misunderstand, I love the yeast Angelo, I used it even before reading it on the forum, it's a valid tool but it doesn't replace all your toolbox.

[rubberduck71]

Good point on both sides.

I'm in favor of the time savings Yellow Label affords, so I've trended that way for the last year. I've also made tasty sugarheads on the spent grains.

I ferment in 6 gal buckets, so ~10 lbs grain, 5 gal water, & 25-30g of yeast.