Vodka vs Neutral vs Additives vs Taste

[dunluce]

I make my vodka with oatmeal.
7.5 kgs of sugar and 2 kgs of oatmeal in a 50 L fermenter.
Stripped and run through a reflux for spirit run
94.5%
Family won't drink anything else.
Smooth. Sweet.

Should get some smooth mouth feel off of that, I would presume?

[EricTheRed]

Quite nice
Going to try using corn and oatmeal next run

[NZChris]

We want VODKA. Don't cofuse with Gin, which is neutral + taste.

Not always. Many gins do have background flavors from the base spirit.

[Saltbush Bill]

Not always. Many gins do have background flavors from the base spirit.

Maybe you can list the "many" commercial gins that use something other than GNS as a base Chris.
The background flavour that Ive most noticed in gins is the one created by using a shit quality GNS, Neutral or other base spirit.
My guess is that the percentage that use a flavored base that actually adds quality to the end product would be about 0.1%

[NZChris]

From that, I suspect that you have tasted a lot more commercial gins than I have, Bill

I don't recall where I saw it, but I was reading an article a while back about the economics of producing your own gin base spirit compared to buying in GNS, Whey spirit etc.. It may have been on this forum, maybe not, If I find it again I'll link to it. According to the article, producing your own 'neutral' doesn't make good business sense compared to buying it in from industrial producers so, if you want to be competitive, you might have to choose to use it, especially as a new business.

If you want to know how a particular gin distiller comes by their neutral, search their website. If they don't tell you, my guess is that they didn't produce it themselves. If I'm attempting to make a particular style of gin that is made commercially, I research what they use for their base spirit as well as their herb bill. E.g., I don't use non-grain sugar wash neutral for Bombay styles, as I suspect that the GNS they use is not as neutral as you might be led to believe if you have been reading forums. A hint of grain left in the GNS is good for mouthfeel and flavor.

I have tasted a couple of NZ products that used NZ produced whey ethanol and wasn't impressed, plus an expensive gin made using an 'in house' neutral that was so fantastically good that I was happy to give it away.

[EricTheRed]

From that, I suspect that you have tasted a lot more commercial gins than I have, Bill

I don't recall where I saw it, but I was reading an article a while back about the economics of producing your own gin base spirit compared to buying in GNS, Whey spirit etc.. It may have been on this forum, maybe not,

It was on this forum couple weeks back. Looked but can't find it right now. It mentioned that the majority of gin producers by in their neutral base spirit.

[EricTheRed]

Found it
viewtopic.php?t=87270#p7713007

[NormandieStill]

Genever (Basically gin) needs a malty base (or at least oud genever does). And the dutch drink quite a bit of that I think. Britain seems to be London Dry or nothing. There's Juniper spirits from Belgium and northern France as well which may follow the dutch tradition, but I've not looked into them too heavily.

[NZChris]

I make my version of Genever using some new make white dog whisky blended with sugar wash neutral, rather than going to the trouble of refluxing good whisky to remove much of it's flavor and turning it into GNS.

[HDNB]

hate to break your hearts, but the fuel plants have a beverage division. the "best" vodka in the world comes out of them...LOL, one plant manager i talked to said his NGS was in over 100 award winning vodkas worldwide. colorless, odorless 96%.. mixed with whatever water being the only difference.

[Northsouth]

That coinsides with what I hear. 100 000 l every day is exported from local sugar cane factory to "top notch" vodka, rum and gin makers. Not mentioning names, but insist it is B..S.. They filter, they add flavours, all BS. Have said it before, and won't back down. Have 50 years of family members in the biz.

[Dathhu]

Having made some shady's sugar shine for the first time, I'm inclined to keep doing it for neutral. It's easy, cheap and pretty damn clean. I'm looking forward to making some gin from this.

Had some acetaldehyde problems on the first go, touch more nutes solved that. Pretty much the easiest, cheapest sugar wash I've ever run.

But, it just isn't vodka.

Different water profiles to dilute did make some difference, but still lacked mouth feel. Letting it sit for a while after dilution helps a lot too. Was far less rough after a couple days in the bottle compared to stuff I'd just proofed down. A couple weeks even more so.

As much as I hate wasting an all grain for vodka, I think I'm going to have to grab a sack of wheat and get mashing just to try it. Still trying to decide on enzymes vs malt. Might make a couple different batches with different adjuncts, rye, oats maybe. Any suggestions?

Anyway, one or two sacks of wheat should give me more than enough vodka for any fussy ones for the next several years. At least the ones I'd be willing to share it with. The rest can just drink my heads and tails jars

[Dathhu]

Just to clarify, shady's still shits all over most bottom shelf vodkas, probably due to still operation and cuts. No heads and tails makes for a much smoother drink.

Just not quite up there with the premium stuff.

[Bitter_Brew]

Most cheap commercial vodka has up to 1g/L of citric acid added, up to 2 g/L of sugar and small amounts of glycerol or sorbitol (<0.5%) for smoothness.

Most expensive vodka probably still has the first two, although this is banned from Polish vodkas (and maybe other places).

I will have to experiment with "adulterating" my sugar shine to see if it improves it as a vodka.

I make my vodka with oatmeal.
7.5 kgs of sugar and 2 kgs of oatmeal in a 50 L fermenter.
Stripped and run through a reflux for spirit run
94.5%
Family won't drink anything else.
Smooth. Sweet.

Do you do anything to the oatmeal first?

[EricTheRed]

Most cheap commercial vodka has up to 1g/L of citric acid added, up to 2 g/L of sugar and small amounts of glycerol or sorbitol (<0.5%) for smoothness.

Most expensive vodka probably still has the first two, although this is banned from Polish vodkas (and maybe other places).

I will have to experiment with "adulterating" my sugar shine to see if it improves it as a vodka.

I make my vodka with oatmeal.
7.5 kgs of sugar and 2 kgs of oatmeal in a 50 L fermenter.
Stripped and run through a reflux for spirit run
94.5%
Family won't drink anything else.
Smooth. Sweet.

Do you do anything to the oatmeal first?

Cook it. Cool to ht. Rest . Cool to gluco. Add sugar - yeast - nutrient

[shadylane]

We want VODKA. Don't cofuse with Gin, which is neutral + taste.

Who said "We" wanted vodka.
Have Ya got a mouse in your f#@ken pocket.

I like a 100% home malted wheat vodka.
Wheat is easy to malt, with lots of starch and a high diastic power.
The flavor is bland, so you can do many things with it.
Stewed, smoked, roasted, toasted etc.

[Northsouth]

Hehe, probably had some vodka when I wrote that.

I must say that vodka it does not seem to get the attention in this forum, and when it does, what really is discussed is neutral for gin. Even considered to try kick off a new thread myself dedicated to it, maybe when I have gone through all the grains, rice, etc.

Have tried all-grain wheat now 5-6 times, regular mesh, even self malted once, and lately with yellow label angel yeast. Every time, I get a slightly sour taste when doing one-and-done 95+ run. A second run takes it to a tasteless neutral. Also tried pot stripping, then reflux, and that just tasted as a one-and-done.

How to improve? These are the kind of questions I would like to be able to discuss here.

[googe]

Start with low abv wash that wont carry shit flavors over.

[Brewfiend]

Hi,

To start this topic, how many of you are happy with your neutral? Does it have any off tastes?

How does it compare to top shelf vodka?

Have you added anything that you think makes it better?

Are there things we can do at a hobby level to make something as good, if not better than the big players?

For fun, list your worst vodka experience




For me, vodka is an illusive beast. You're trying to beat out all the harsh flavour, but allowing a little... Some of that grain, be it wheat, corn, barley, you do want some of that through...

Balancing heads, tails... Apart from carbon filtering, I think big distillers are cheating more... I'm sure they're adding extra to improve mouth feel etc.


My neutral always had a slight bitterness to it. I chalked it up to tails, but after making repeated reflux runs, with more and more cuts, I'm just of the opinion that ethanol is bitter and additives are added to commercial product to smooth it out.

I've read that various different taste receptors work differently with everyone... Some are more prone to bitter, some less so, some almost none at all. For me, I can definitely tell the bitterness of ethanol, not strong, but it's there.



For me, my neutral works damn well as a mixer, doesn't stand up to a vodka soda though, or a straight sip. As I said, the lingering bitterness just doesn't work. Makes a great gin though, very happy with that. Thanks Odin for a great start.


Tried a small amount of citric acid... I think it works. A little acidity cuts almost all of the bitterness. Something I'll be testing more...

Any thoughts appreciated, sorry for the long ramble


p.s. my worst vodka experience...
Underage, got my older mate to buy me the cheapest bottle available... Was some brand like Ruskov or something, plainly pretending to be Russian...spent the next day driving the porcelain bus...

I won't touch my neutral unless it is very clean. I get great results soaking on carbon at 40 percent. But just double distilling an 8% wash gives me clean neutral... I still polish it. I also made a vodka with wheat germ and a sugar head which I've yet to distill. I'll let you know. After polishing it it has mostly just an ethanol flavour, great with soda water, almost undetectable

[Brewfiend]

I've never seen a commercial neutral but commercial vodka tastes weird to me. I think I need to try more micro brewed spirits because I've never been very impressed spirits I've bought.

[tiramisu]

In North America....

(Prior to 2020) Formerly, the TTB’s standards of identity read, “'Vodka’ is neutral spirits so distilled, or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color.” It was short and a bit ambiguous.

The new definition is both more specific but also more encompassing. “'Vodka’ is neutral spirits which may be treated with up to two grams per liter of sugar and up to one gram per liter of citric acid,” the revision begins. “Products to be labeled as vodka may not be aged or stored in wood barrels at any time except when stored in paraffin-lined wood barrels and labeled as bottled in bond... Vodka treated and filtered with not less than one ounce of activated carbon or activated charcoal per 100 wine gallons of spirits may be labeled as ‘charcoal filtered.’”

The majority of Vodka will be GNS with someone's favorite water added. It is impossible to beat the cost of buying GNS from a tanker truck. Many an "award-winning" high-priced vodka is nothing but this and marketing.

For small distillers the definition of Vodka is usually about subtle taste and mouth feel whether it be potato, wheat and or barley which is a lot closer to what you would call vodka in Eastern Europe/Asia I expect. Whether this is premium or bottom shelf Vodka is open to debate.

[Northsouth]

One question that comes to mind. If, after reading on here, made SSP, talked to family members that distilled for half a decade (scandinavians), etc. I get 95.6 ABV (not ABW), would that not be enough to remove the sour taste of a full ALL GRAIN WASH? The answer is NOPE.

Run it again, and it is now nothing, just ethanol. (My target is Absolut Vodka, that claim no charcoal filtering).

[greggn]

Have tried all-grain wheat now 5-6 times, regular mesh, even self malted once, and lately with yellow label angel yeast. Every time, I get a slightly sour taste

Where do you get your grains ?

I just finished 150 lbs of feed store winter red wheat that I ran for AG vodka. Wheat can give a big punch in the mouth if your cuts are off ... but I've never produced anything as a one-and-done.

[Northsouth]

I get them from a feedstore as well. What is good enough for old Snowflake, is good enough for me

Probably have to play with the number of equivalent plates here. In theory, I should be at 15-25 plates with current setup'

2 times around and proofing down is then 30-50 plates plus the effect of downproofing.

Have also tried blending back in with output from first run, with some limited success.

Anyone tried adding oats to wheat?

[greggn]

I get them from a feedstore as well.

Have you tasted them ? Maybe the sour is coming from the grains themselves.

Anyone tried adding oats to wheat?

I've done both separately but not both together. I wouldn't put an airlock on that 'till at least 24 hrs into an active ferment.