Ph crashes in sugar washes

[frunobulax]

You should really have a PH meter to use it, but I would us a teaspoon to start (About 2.5- 3grams).
If it's after fermentation is under weigh, sanitize equipment and definitely stir gently. It works almost instantly, so you don't have to wait that long.
Be careful using it, It's potent stuff.

[bcook608]

Sounds good! Thanks!

I think I'm just going to stick to what I know and use oyster shell at the beginning of my ferments.

[Salt Must Flow]

Dead post, but I didn't see dosage recommendations for Calcium Hydroxide. Do you just add small amounts to the wash and check a half hour or so later? I'm assuming you're stirring gently to incorporate but not enough to introduce more oxygen.

I agree with frunobulax, a cheap digital ph meter is king. I tried using Litmus paper and it was terrible.

Add a little bit at a time, mix thoroughly and check the ph again. Calcium Hydroxide works immediately in my experience and no need for waiting before testing. After a while you'll get a better feel for how much to add at a time with the batch size you're used to making. I do 50 gal batches so I use multiple spoon fulls at a time.

[Saltbush Bill]

For the newbies out there who read this stuff and think making a sugar washs seems complicated or tricky.
I think a lot of people overthink this stuff , Ive never owned a PH meter, never owned Litmus paper, lost track years ago of how many sugar washes and other washes Ive made............never once had one fail.
Follow a tried and tried and true recipe to the letter and you will be extremely unlucky for it not to work.

[bunny]

For the newbies out there who read this stuff and think making a sugar washs seems complicated or tricky.
I think a lot of people overthink this stuff , Ive never owned a PH meter, never owned Litmus paper, lost track years ago of how many sugar washes and other washes Ive made............never once had one fail.
Follow a tried and tried and true recipe to the letter and you will be extremely unlucky for it not to work.

Wineo never had pH problems either.
He probably had fairly hard water.
Do you know the hardness of your water.
My water has only 15-20grains of hardness.
If I don't add CaCO3 before adding my yeast it will crash within 6 hours.
I use 4 Tbs in my wash of 16lb sugar and 12gallons total.
My wash ends fermentation at mid 4s pH.

This becomes easy if you know your water.

[bcook608]

Yeah, I was only trying to find these answers because I didn't have oyster shell but luckily I mentioned that to SWMBO and she bought me a 50 pound bag on her way home.

+1 for an awesome wife!

[Salt Must Flow]

Yeah, I was only trying to find these answers because I didn't have oyster shell but luckily I mentioned that to SWMBO and she bought me a 50 pound bag on her way home.

+1 for an awesome wife!

Just to be clear, Calcium Hydroxide WILL bring your ph up instantly, but will NOT buffer it to maintain ph throughout fermentation. I'm sure bunny and Saltbush Bill are absolutely correct in their specific circumstance & conditions. I don't know my water chemistry and I don't really care. I just know what works and works repeatedly. If I check my starting ph it is usually around 7 ish. As long as I add Citric Acid to lower my ph to 5.2 - 5.6 and add Crushed Oyster Shell my ph buffers and fermentation finishes like bunny said, in the 4 ish area. If I do or do not add Citric Acid and do not add oyster shell my ph crashes overnight. I've had sugar washes pull through without Citric Acid or Oyster Shell, but I don't see anything wrong with creating ideal conditions by simply owning a $20 ph meter adding Citric Acid and Oyster Shell.

This really isn't complicated. All I know is, if you are going to add something like Calcium Hydroxide to adjust your ph then it is ideal to first know what your ph is and know if you've reached your target ph range when you add something that alters it. I don't mind checking my ph daily just to keep records that show me that what I'm doing is working or not. Over time I've seen a pattern, consistency and don't have to check daily. It just works.

There have been times where I forgot to add the Oyster Shell and my ph crashed by the next morning. I checked ph, added Calcium Hydroxide, checked ph again, continued adding until the ph was right then added the Oyster Shell. My ph stayed buffered until fermentation completed.

[shadylane]

I seldom make a big enough mistake to have to use Calcium Hydroxide.
But when I do, I mix it with water first and squirt a little bit at a time into the fermenter.

Does anyone know the ratio of calcium hydroxide to citric acid for them to neutralize each other?

[Yummyrum]

But when I do, I mix it with water first and squirt a little bit at a time into the fermenter.

I believe that is what they call “Milk of Lime “ Shady .

Interestingly , Calcium Hydroxide is not very soluble in water . Thats why it looks milky . It eventually settles to the bottom . The clear result is what is known as Lime water.
It still has some Calcium Hydroxide dissolved into it . We use it at work as a test for CO2. Bubble CO2 through it makes cloudy Calcium Carbonate .

Intetestng thought …. Could that happen in a fermenter?

[StillerBoy]

Ph monitoring of a sugar wash is not a complex thing.. all the sugar wash recipes were done many yrs back and have not been updated..

All sugar wash Ph will drop within the first 8 - 10 hrs (and early but no effect on the yeast) of pitching the yeast, no matter what water quality used, and will required an adjustment of some kind.. if oyster shells have been added prior to pitching, then the Ph wil drop to below 4 (and it's depended on the starting Ph) and the yeast will slow down, which explain why those recipe will take anywhere from 8 - 20 days to finish dry..

If one monitors the Ph at the 8 - 10 hrs, and make an adjustment, and re-monitor at the 24 hr point, and make an adjustment, after which the wash Ph become stable, with no more adjustment or monitoring required, and the wash will finish in 4 - 5 days.. that's the different between a shells wash and monitors one..

Mars

[shadylane]

But when I do, I mix it with water first and squirt a little bit at a time into the fermenter.

I believe that is what they call “Milk of Lime “ Shady .

Interestingly , Calcium Hydroxide is not very soluble in water . Thats why it looks milky . It eventually settles to the bottom . The clear result is what is known as Lime water.
It still has some Calcium Hydroxide dissolved into it . We use it at work as a test for CO2. Bubble CO2 through it makes cloudy Calcium Carbonate .

Intetestng thought …. Could that happen in a fermenter?

I have to give the plastic bottle a good shacking before dumping the CH into the fermenter.
I'm thinking we don't have to worry about its solubility once it's mixed into an acidic wash.

[Salt Must Flow]

Ph monitoring of a sugar wash is not a complex thing.. all the sugar wash recipes were done many yrs back and have not been updated..

All sugar wash Ph will drop within the first 8 - 10 hrs (and early but no effect on the yeast) of pitching the yeast, no matter what water quality used, and will required an adjustment of some kind.. if oyster shells have been added prior to pitching, then the Ph wil drop to below 4 (and it's depended on the starting Ph) and the yeast will slow down, which explain why those recipe will take anywhere from 8 - 20 days to finish dry..

If one monitors the Ph at the 8 - 10 hrs, and make an adjustment, and re-monitor at the 24 hr point, and make an adjustment, after which the wash Ph become stable, with no more adjustment or monitoring required, and the wash will finish in 4 - 5 days.. that's the different between a shells wash and monitors one..

Mars

My fermentations never take more than 7 days tops. I've never had a sugar wash take longer than 7 days and certainly never anywhere near 20 days. If one checks the specific gravity occasionally during fermentation and notices a stall (specific gravity not dropping) then there's a problem. Check ph and see what's going on. You made no mention of adding Citric Acid or anything else to adjust the starting ph prior to adding Oyster Shell. Perhaps there's something specific to your water chemistry that doesn't require it?

When you say "make an adjustment", what are you adding to take this adjustment? Just curious. Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Hydroxide,etc...?

[shadylane]

All sugar wash Ph will drop within the first 8 - 10 hrs...
...if oyster shells have been added prior to pitching, then the Ph wil drop to below 4 (and it's depended on the starting Ph) and the yeast will slow down, which explain why those recipe will take anywhere from 8 - 20 days to finish dry..

I wouldn't say 8 -10 hours. Instead, I'd say the pH will decrease once active fermentation is happening.
As to the 8 - 20 days, your fermentations are slower than most folks.
Is the yeast stressed or is the fermenter getting too cold?

If one monitors the Ph at the 8 - 10 hrs, and make an adjustment, and re-monitor at the 24 hr point, and make an adjustment, after which the wash Ph become stable, with no more adjustment or monitoring required, and the wash will finish in 4 - 5 days.. that's the different between a shells wash and monitors one..

Mars

Here's what I'm thinking.
Adjusting the pH multiple times increases the odds of making a mistake.
I also don't think yeast likes its pH environment changed rapidly.

[NZChris]

Here's what I'm thinking.
Adjusting the pH multiple times increases the odds of making a mistake.
I also don't think yeast likes its pH environment changed rapidly.

I agree.

I'd much rather put some large shells in a sugar wash and not have to fiddle with pH until the ferment finishes.

I'm sure yeast works better without wild fluctuations in pH, temperature and SG.

[quadra]

I guess I have been lucky with the chemistry of my local water but all I use is crushed oyster shell grit and I have never had a problem or a long fermentation. I use two separate bags of shell grit hung in the top 6" of the fermentation assuming there will be some convective agitation benefit that shells on the bottom of the fermentation might miss out on. I use nylon stocking legs ( knotted at each end ) as the bags and hang them off hooks made of copper electrical wire the wire ,stocking, and prewashed shell are prepared with a couple minute dip in boiling water before they go in the fermenting barrel and typically lose about 8-10g weight per 5 gallon sugar wash. I have not had a stall since I started with oyster shell.

[StillerBoy]

I'm sure yeast works better without wild fluctuations in pH, temperature and SG.

I've done many experiment over the yrs with sugar washes side by side (6.5 gal) on Ph levels (starting, dropping, and when it stabilizes), and temperature pitching and stability, and starting SG..

As to the yeast disliking wild fluctuations in Ph, what I've observed is if the Ph level drops to low (below 3) and is adjusted within the hrs mention, no effect was observed, but it the adjustment is made later (like 24 -36 hrs), then the fermentation time is extended.. the ideal starting Ph is 6.5..

The SG and temp also play a factor in fluctuation.. a starting is SG over .080 with cause the fermentation to be prolong.. similar for temp, if the temp is not monitor to be stable and is allow to fluctuate to the ambient temp, it will also cause the fermentation to be prolong/extended..

The yeast behavior tell me if the conditions (Ph, temp, SG) are to their liking or not by the duration of the fermentation..

Mars

[shadylane]

As to the yeast disliking wild fluctuations in Ph, what I've observed is if the Ph level drops to low (below 3) and is adjusted within the hrs mention, no effect was observed, but it the adjustment is made later (like 24 -36 hrs), then the fermentation time is extended.. the ideal starting Ph is 6.5..

Mars

Why wait for the pH to crash and the yeast being stressed?
Add something to buffer the pH at the beginning.

[bcook608]

I'm glad I revived this post!
Thanks for providing some more recent conversation on yeast happiness.

I'll make sure to get a better PH meter now and correct my wash to 5.6 ish prior to pitching.

[frunobulax]

Personally, I wouldn't bring PH down only to have it drop further with fermentation. Knowing it's gonna crash, I'll even add Calcium hydroxide to raise it
a bit anticipating the crash. Yes, the yeast prefers 5.6 or so, but we're not making beer, and a sugar wash isn't the best environment for yeast anyway.

[bcook608]

Personally, I wouldn't bring PH down only to have it drop further with fermentation. Knowing it's gonna crash, I'll even add Calcium hydroxide to raise it
a bit anticipating the crash. Yes, the yeast prefers 5.6 or so, but we're not making beer, and a sugar wash isn't the best environment for yeast anyway.

I've seen more than a couple experiments on this forum showing that the drop in PH isn't as drastic when lowered to around 5-5.6 prior to pitching.

[StillerBoy]

I wouldn't bring PH down only to have it drop further with fermentation.

In a sugar wash, it doesn't matter much if the wash is started at a Ph of 5.6 or even higher like 6.5.. it will all go down to the 3 or lower, and I'm not aware of what needs to be change to stop it, other than monitoring..

The different between a 5.6 and 6.5 is it form less of kaursen (foaming) at the start, thereby needing less head space..

As to using shell at the start, yeah they do work but are very slow, and the Ph will still go to near a 3, and will take more time to recover back to a 4 than making the adjustment manually, thereby adding extra fermenting time..

Mars

[NZChris]

As to using shell at the start, yeah they do work but are very slow, and the Ph will still go to near a 3, and will take more time to recover back to a 4 than making the adjustment manually, thereby adding extra fermenting time..

That isn't something I've observed in mine. Try using a bigger shell, or more of them.

[Salt Must Flow]

Personally, I wouldn't bring PH down only to have it drop further with fermentation. Knowing it's gonna crash, I'll even add Calcium hydroxide to raise it
a bit anticipating the crash. Yes, the yeast prefers 5.6 or so, but we're not making beer, and a sugar wash isn't the best environment for yeast anyway.

I really wish I saved the link to where someone proposed the same thing as you and someone came in and explained the chemistry. I do not have the vocabulary to even try to explain it exactly, but I'll give it a try though I KNOW that I'm not explaining the chemistry correctly.

By lowering the initial ph to 5.2 - 5.6 using Citric Acid it allows for the Oyster Shell to begin being dissolved. Yeast is introduced. As the ph continues to try and drop the Oyster Shell continues to dissolve and buffer the wash WITHOUT the yeast experiencing a huge ph swing. As mentioned previously the wash will finish at around 4.2 ish with no huge swing. It's basically that simple. This is like your wash being on auto pilot hands off.

The alternative is to pitch yeast, experience the crach, make additions to raise the ph, test and repeat over X number of days. Too much handling, potential for screwups and yeast experiencing ph crashes.

[frunobulax]

Yes...Oyster shells (calcium Carbonate) will not dissolve into solution without an acidic environment. That's why it's slow to work, It need's time to break down. Being a beer brewer, I don't use it 'cause it's too slow and unpredictable. That's why I use calcium hydroxide, it's immediate.
I guess as long as everyone realizes the need for PH control, it doesn't matter how ya get there, so long as it's addressed.

[StillerBoy]

I guess as long as everyone realizes the need for PH control, it doesn't matter how ya do it, so long as it's addressed.

That about sums it up.. what ever method or process one trains himself to adapt, as long as it does the task..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

That isn't something I've observed in mine. Try using a bigger shell, or more of them.

A few yrs back I did about a dozen 6.5 gal wash side by side, using chicken feed oyster shells (2 lbs) suspended in a bag in one and none it the other with manual (2)adjustments.. did the two correction in the none, and after 2 days had to correct the shell one due to staying to low and taking an extra 3 days to complete.. that was good enough for me to not go that route..

The five minutes it takes to do the adjustment, I'm ok with that method/process. And in either case, the finished product is not affected by it..

I've spend some time trying to figure out why the Ph drop so much in plain white sugar, haven't put my finger on it yet, maybe it just the wrong ingredients used, and haven't venture down that route yet ? ?.. yet I do rum with panela/molasses, or an AG and the Ph stays relatively stable with no adjustments required..

Mars

[shadylane]

Here's a DIY buffer mixture that artooks uses.

0.37 grams citric acid / liter + 4 grams oyster shell

[NormandieStill]

I've spend some time trying to figure out why the Ph drop so much in plain white sugar, haven't put my finger on it yet, maybe it just the wrong ingredients used, and haven't venture down that route yet ? ?.. yet I do rum with panela/molasses, or an AG and the Ph stays relatively stable with no adjustments required..

In a plain sugar wash there's literally nothing else to chemically buffer the wash. So it comes down purely to water chemistry. Soft water will probably drop pH faster than hard water. Certainly, while I use oyster shells in my sugar washes on principle I've had very few problems with pH crashes...The water here is so hard I could actually harvest calcium carbonate professionally. The kettle furs up after 5 boils.

Molasses and Gas are rich in other chemicals some of which clearly play a stabilising role. And thank God or we'd never have had beer.

[shadylane]

The water at my house is soft and has very little buffering ability.
The pH of a sugar wash is guaranteed to crash is something isn't done.
The easiest way I've found to keep the pH under control, is to put shell grit in a sock and hang it in the fermenter. If your water is soft, it helps. If your water is hard, it doesn't hurt.

On a side note.
I think there might be some trace minerals in the crushed shells that the yeast can use.

[NZChris]

I've spend some time trying to figure out why the Ph drop so much in plain white sugar, haven't put my finger on it yet, maybe it just the wrong ingredients used, and haven't venture down that route yet ? ?.. yet I do rum with panela/molasses, or an AG and the Ph stays relatively stable with no adjustments required..

In a plain sugar wash there's literally nothing else to chemically buffer the wash. So it comes down purely to water chemistry. Soft water will probably drop pH faster than hard water. Certainly, while I use oyster shells in my sugar washes on principle I've had very few problems with pH crashes...The water here is so hard I could actually harvest calcium carbonate professionally. The kettle furs up after 5 boils.

Molasses and Gas are rich in other chemicals some of which clearly play a stabilising role. And thank God or we'd never have had beer.

Which is why not everyone needs to know all of the ins and outs of how to fiddle with pH throughout a ferment, as some would have all newbies believing. My local water only needs me to chuck a couple of large clams in the wash at the start then look after the temperature.

Looking at the notes from my last sugar wash, it started at pH 6 and finished at pH 6. In 23 gallons, 160g of clams (2 clams) finished at 93g, so it used 67g of CC from the shells. Those numbers won't help anybody else unless they live in the same town and use town supply water.

Keep good records, weigh your shells or block of marble, before and after, and learn from the results.