Vodka run with a dephlegmator/shotgun reflux setup

[JHeron]

G'Day folks and Happy 2023!
I have around 50 gallons of sugar wash to run here soon. I am a greenhorn and have yet to try out my reflux setup and have a few questions.

Questions:
1) I see in the diagrams here that the dephleg is fed cool or feed water in the bottom (facing the boiler) and the hot water drain out the top. This seems counter intuitive to me as the vapours will hit the coolest water first with the warmer water being above. Is this the correct way to feed it the cooling water or should I feed it from the top end as my logic says it should be?
2) I am using a tee fitting to split the water feed from my condeser to a separate ball valve to control the flow into the dephleg but I see some setups appear to control the water coming out of the dephleg, is there a method that is best?
3) I have a screen in between the 2 sections of 2" stack holding up my rolls of copper mesh, I see on the tube that some pack the bottom section instead, what is the best location for the packing, top of the stack or bottom, or indifferent?
4) I bought a site glass for the last AG run I did so I could see if it was puking, glad I did or I would of had a puke for sure on the first run. Should I leave the site glass at the bottom, I see some folks put them directly under the dephlegmator?

Any and all advice is appreciated!


Thanks for any tips!
Cheers,
Jon

[JHeron]

OH yeah,
I plan to run this like my whiskey and rum doing hot and fast stripping runs (no water to dephleg) and then a low and slow spirit run on the low wines utilising the dephleg and its resulting reflux action.
Does that sound about right?
I assume there are heads and tails with a sugar wash just like with rum and whiskey?
I kind of screwed up my mash (based loosely on wineo's plain old sugar wash) and added an extra 6 gallon pail of water (DOH!) to the mix which brought my wash to about 5% so i added what extra sugar I had on hand into it, about an extra 10lbs including a 2kg pack of yellow sugar.
I also added about 2 gallons of the backset from my previous AG whiskey.
It smells real nice, almost like fresh bread, and I sure hope its good stuff!
Cheers,
Jon

[Salt Must Flow]

1) I see in the diagrams here that the dephleg is fed cool or feed water in the bottom (facing the boiler) and the hot water drain out the top. This seems counter intuitive to me as the vapours will hit the coolest water first with the warmer water being above. Is this the correct way to feed it the cooling water or should I feed it from the top end as my logic says it should be?

When you feed water from the bottom it allows any air to escape through the top/exit.

2) I am using a tee fitting to split the water feed from my condeser to a separate ball valve to control the flow into the dephleg but I see some setups appear to control the water coming out of the dephleg, is there a method that is best?

I feed each condenser separately. Each will require a different amount of flow so I've never seen the point of feeding them inline.

3) I have a screen in between the 2 sections of 2" stack holding up my rolls of copper mesh, I see on the tube that some pack the bottom section instead, what is the best location for the packing, top of the stack or bottom, or indifferent?

I would remove any screens, that or cut away the screen to make a cross to support the packing. Screens cause columns to flood, even coarse screens.

If your goal is to have a reflux column to make neutral then you want the entire column to be packed. I would leave approx 2" gap between the top of the packing and underside of your dephlegmator.

4) I bought a site glass for the last AG run I did so I could see if it was puking, glad I did or I would of had a puke for sure on the first run. Should I leave the site glass at the bottom, I see some folks put them directly under the dephlegmator?

I mostly do sugar washes so foaming/puking is not an issue at all, so I like to put my sight glass at the top of my column so I can see the reflux falling down onto the top of the packing. If you are doing grain mashes then I'd probably leave the glass at the bottom and perhaps consider adding another one at the top of the column if you want to see your reflux.

[JHeron]

Thanks man!

I would remove any screens, that or cut away the screen to make a cross to support the packing. Screens cause columns to flood, even coarse screens.

If your goal is to have a reflux column to make neutral then you want the entire column to be packed. I would leave approx 2" gap between the top of the packing and underside of your dephlegmator.

OK.
What do you mean by "screens cause columns to flood"? Is this like a puke where the boiler contents enter the column?
I dont have enough copper to pack both sections but I have heard about using plain old alleys or marbles, I think the kids have some I could use, should I just toss them in the bottom section of column then?
Cheers,
Jon

[Salt Must Flow]

Thanks man!

I would remove any screens, that or cut away the screen to make a cross to support the packing. Screens cause columns to flood, even coarse screens.

If your goal is to have a reflux column to make neutral then you want the entire column to be packed. I would leave approx 2" gap between the top of the packing and underside of your dephlegmator.

OK.
What do you mean by "screens cause columns to flood"? Is this like a puke where the boiler contents enter the column?
I dont have enough copper to pack both sections but I have heard about using plain old alleys or marbles, I think the kids have some I could use, should I just toss them in the bottom section of column then?
Cheers,
Jon

As vapor is rising up the column through the screen, the falling reflux gets held up by the screen, chokes and the column begins to flood. Screens are restrictions and restrictions cause flooding. I know there's plenty of people that claim to be using screens and have not experienced flooding, but those that have experienced flooding had screens (including me) and removing them (or altering them) solved the problem.

I made some of these to install at the base of my column/riser, I stack some rolls of copper mesh and any other packing can be used above it. Some have simply drilled 4 holes around the base of their column, inserted copper wire and soldered them in place.

[JHeron]

Thanks man!

I would remove any screens, that or cut away the screen to make a cross to support the packing. Screens cause columns to flood, even coarse screens.

If your goal is to have a reflux column to make neutral then you want the entire column to be packed. I would leave approx 2" gap between the top of the packing and underside of your dephlegmator.

OK.
What do you mean by "screens cause columns to flood"? Is this like a puke where the boiler contents enter the column?
I dont have enough copper to pack both sections but I have heard about using plain old alleys or marbles, I think the kids have some I could use, should I just toss them in the bottom section of column then?
Cheers,
Jon

As vapor is rising up the column through the screen, the falling reflux gets held up by the screen, chokes and the column begins to flood. Screens are restrictions and restrictions cause flooding. I know there's plenty of people that claim to be using screens and have not experienced flooding, but those that have experienced flooding had screens (including me) and removing them (or altering them) solved the problem.

I made some of these to install at the base of my column/riser, I stack some rolls of copper mesh and any other packing can be used above it. Some have simply drilled 4 holes around the base of their column, inserted copper wire and soldered them in place.

Wire Support 01.jpg

Got it!
Thanks.
I guess I could just drill some larger holes in the screen for now too eh...

[Demy]

I don't use any shields for the scrubbers, for me if they are tight enough they will seal themselves but it doesn't hurt as long as there are large holes as suggested. I recommend for a neutral to pack the entire column. I run a CCVM so I put a sight glass on top to see the copper coil movement. Your dephlegmator is fine, but you should be able to block all steam (100% reflux, no exit) in the early stages of equilibrium in the column.

[JHeron]

I don't use any shields for the scrubbers, for me if they are tight enough they will seal themselves but it doesn't hurt as long as there are large holes as suggested. I recommend for a neutral to pack the entire column. I run a CCVM so I put a sight glass on top to see the copper coil movement. Your dephlegmator is fine, but you should be able to block all steam (100% reflux, no exit) in the early stages of equilibrium in the column.

OK I ordered another roll of copper mesh so I will be able fill up the column.
From what I read I should wait till I get a drop out of the still then turn the water on full to the dephleg to let the column stabilise for 10-15 minutes before slowly restricting the water supply till I start getting high proof out of the condenser (>90%) once the heads are gone.
Sound about right?
Does the dephleg take much adjusting throughout the run typically, or just when you turn up the power?
Cheers,
Jon

[Yummyrum]

I’ve never needed anything to hold scrubbers in place . IMO , if they need something to hold them there , you aren’t stuffing them in hard enough .Tease then out , Ram them in .

[Demy]

I recommend turning on the water before any product comes out. The dephlegmator basically behaves like a valve... if the temperature and the flow of water is constant, I don't think any adjustment is necessary during the collection of the hearts.

[Saltbush Bill]

You could well need to make many adjustments to the water flow.
An CM still is going to need adjustments from time to time UNLESS you have a perfectly stable water flow/ pressure.
One of the joys of running a CM.

[JHeron]

Well that was fun! I ran that still all weekend lol
I removed the screen and stacked the whole column with copper mesh for the spirit run.
The best I could get was 93%. My low wine was sitting about 33-35%. I was collecting about 300ml every 10-15 minutes running what I felt was quite slow. You could see plenty of reflux in the sight glass under the dephleg.
I didnt play much with tuning as it was tasting pretty good and running consistent.
Am I doing something wrong or is 93% about right for this setup?
I screwed up on my valve placement on the dephleg. I couldnt throttle the product condenser without also throttling the dephleg... Dope...
That will be corrected next time.
I havent done the cuts yet but I did some tasting and sniffing around tonight and the first 500ml jar tastes like a keeper, can this be right? I only took about 300ml of four shots and heads off before this first jar?
The transition to tails was obvious and immediate so these these cuts should be a cinch compared to the whiskey and rum! Or maybe my sniffer is getting trained?
I used about a gallon and a half of backset from my last grain whiskey which also had some apples in the mash and added it to this sugar wash for some nutrients. You cant taste any apples in the whisky but I swear I can taste them in this vodka, am I crazy or is this possible?
Thanks for the advice folks!
Jon

[still_stirrin]

… I havent done the cuts yet but I did some tasting and sniffing around tonight and the first 500ml jar tastes like a keeper, can this be right? … You cant taste any apples in the whisky but I swear I can taste them in this vodka, am I crazy or is this possible?

Not crazy, but it sounds like your tastebuds are mislead. Heads will often have an apple-like ester note to them. You may think it’s “a keeper”, but I’d bet your paradigm is off the mark. And taking such a big foreshots cut and then NO heads cut, I am not surprised at all that it tastes like you say it does. It is probably quite “warming” too, isn’t it?

When you reflux to a higher purity, it concentrates the heads up front compared to the potstilled whiskey run when the heads are spread out more and masked with more of the grain flavors. A “vodka” doesn’t have much to hide the imperfections, hence their forward note in your sample. Did you allow your collection of jars to air out overnight (24-36 hours)? That would help reduce the more volatile constituents, in particular the ethyl acetate (fingernail polish remover solvents).
ss

[JHeron]

Thanks for the tips!
Good to know about the apple-like heads, that is likely exactly what it is then. Yes it is warming too.
Yes the jars have been airing out since Sunday and I am planning on making the cuts today.
In your opinion is 93% an OK purity on a rig like this with a dephlegmator or should I be looking to tweak my setup on the next run?
Cheers,
Jon

[Yummyrum]

300mls /15min is probably at the high end for a 2” with mesh .
300mls /10min definitely is collecting to fast and will significantly reduce your AVB .

Try reducing take off rate to less than 1L/hr ( 250mls /15min) and see if your ABV goes up .

Did you temp correct your measurement ?
93% from low wines is low and you should be able to pull 95% at 1L/hr typically .( with a metre packed )

How long is your packed section ?

Maybe you need to increase power . You may be running too low power and at the takeoff rate you are running , there just isn’t enough Reflux left to get the ABV up ?

[Saltbush Bill]

I hadn't read right back through this whole thread.......but that still will do better if the column is insulated.......that is if it's not already done.

[Yummyrum]

I screwed up on my valve placement on the dephleg. I couldnt throttle the product condenser without also throttling the dephleg... Dope...

Correct the valves for sure .
There is no real need to throttle flow to PC other than to conserve water , but the Deglag control is important . You should be able to have full flow available for initial equalisation and then be able to reduce flow to allow product takeoff to occur . It’s at this critical point of flow through Deflag that you need to tweak .

[Saltbush Bill]

Am I doing something wrong or is 93% about right for this setup?

To give you some idea .....a well run packed reflux column should run 95% on wash only.....not high abv low wines.......you've still got some some tweeking to do there to get the best product that you can.

[JHeron]

300mls /15min is probably at the high end for a 2” with mesh .
300mls /10min definitely is collecting to fast and will significantly reduce your AVB .

Try reducing take off rate to less than 1L/hr ( 250mls /15min) and see if your ABV goes up .
OK will do on the next one.

Did you temp correct your measurement ?
93% from low wines is low and you should be able to pull 95% at 1L/hr typically .( with a metre packed )
Yes that is what I figured, I got 93 off this running rum without the dephleg

How long is your packed section ?
34" of packed 2" column, in total with the reducer and sight glass its 45" to the bottom of the dephleg
Maybe you need to increase power . You may be running too low power and at the takeoff rate you are running , there just isn’t enough Reflux left to get the ABV up ?
I will try that on the next run, plus I will have the valves setup properly which will give me more flow through the dephleg if needed as well. Whit the way I ran this run I had the valve for the dephleg mostly wide open. Doh!
Appreciate the tips!

[JHeron]

I hadn't read right back through this whole thread.......but that still will do better if the column is insulated.......that is if it's not already done.

Great idea!

[JHeron]

Am I doing something wrong or is 93% about right for this setup?

To give you some idea .....a well run packed reflux column should run 95% on wash only.....not high abv low wines.......you've still got some some tweeking to do there to get the best product that you can.

Yep definitely, looking forward to the next run!
Thanks for all the advice boys!
Cheers,
Jon

[Saltbush Bill]

What I meant by that is yes use low wines in the still......but the still should be capable of 95 or better even using plain wash.

[JHeron]

What I meant by that is yes use low wines in the still......but the still should be capable of 95 or better even using plain wash.

Yup I got you.
I am pretty sure it was my valve setup for the dephleg that was the root of my problems with this run.
Cheers,
Jon

[JHeron]

I am thinking I may just re-run this whole batch...

[JHeron]

Well I fixed the valve and am running it again now and I still cant get over 93%. Having the valve situation proper is much better though.
I have tried cranking the heater to around 111V, tried turing it down to 103V (3kw heater), running it slow at about 500ml/ half hour and even slower.
Same result no matter what.
I know I was getting 95 on rum spirit runs out in the garage running it on a gas burner without the dephleg and sight glass so this should do better, right?
Hmmmm.....
What am I doing wrong here I wonder...
Cheers,
Jon

[JHeron]

I should add its running about 171F at the head.

[Yummyrum]

Run stripped wash will always give a higher ABV than just running wash .

You have a sight-glass so crank the power slowly until you see the liquid rising above the packing , then turn it down a bit . This is the most efficient point to run it .Maybe you just aren’t pushing as much heat into as you were on gas .

[JHeron]

You have a sight-glass so crank the power slowly until you see the liquid rising above the packing , then turn it down a bit . This is the most efficient point to run it .Maybe you just aren’t pushing as much heat into as you were on gas .

Interesting, perhaps the more even heat from the burner makes it run better? Once things thaw out up here I will have to try it on the burner with the dephleg to see if there is a difference. The electric setup inside sure is convenient and quiet!
I am only running it at about half power, much more then that and I am wasting too much water it seems. Maybe I need to setup a pump and recirc setup for the dephleg...

[Bushman]

You have a sight-glass so crank the power slowly until you see the liquid rising above the packing , then turn it down a bit . This is the most efficient point to run it .Maybe you just aren’t pushing as much heat into as you were on gas .

Interesting, perhaps the more even heat from the burner makes it run better? Once things thaw out up here I will have to try it on the burner with the dephleg to see if there is a difference. The electric setup inside sure is convenient and quiet!
I am only running it at about half power, much more then that and I am wasting too much water it seems. Maybe I need to setup a pump and recirc setup for the dephleg...

To add to Yummy’s comment when crank the power slowly wait for it to dial in before turning it up more.

[JHeron]

When refluxing what is the best practice?
Should I be keeping the boiler slightly higher then when I am running it as a pot still and then reduce the water in the dephleg to let the vapours past. Everything running nice, slow and balanced.
OR
Should I be cranking the boiler and running the dephleg wide open until I get vapour out of the dephleg?
Cheers,
Jon