Slow Then Stuck Sugar Wash

[Hebden]

Can anyone help here, sugar wash started slow and then seems to have stopped at SG 1.012 after 9 days at 85-86f

200L Wash
37.5kg sugar
220g EC1118 (previous working attempt had 500g pitched direct to wash)
B12 x 4 (previous working attempt had 4.5)
B-Complex x 4 (previous working attempt had 4.5)
4 x tbsp DAP (previous working attempt had 4.6)
0.75tsp Epsom Salt

Opening SG 1.070 & 9 day SG 1.012 which looks to have stopped.
Opening pH 5.4 & day 9 pH is 3.5 (this amount of CaCO3 has always kept this wash above 4.5 pH

With only minor adjustments to my wash from a previous working wash, I rehydrated yeast to Lalvin guidelines and pitched at 85f as should be done instructed also.

Lowered pH to 5.4 before adding 400g CaCO3 and then pitching rehydrated yeast to within tolerences given.

This is similar to my previous run which went perfect in 5 days and I know this CaCO3 volume works, I have used it before. Although last time I simply pitched "more" ie 500g yeast directly into the wash, this time the yeasties never seemed to bubble with the usual vigour.
I had thought this was because my pitch rate was halved (again to EC1118 top end guidelines).

Is there anything I can do to save it?

I did do one thing differently and that was to add CaCO3 right after lowering pH and before pitching. Whereas previously, I had added my CaCO3 to my nutrients and sugar and mix all together, therefore "maybe" the CaCO3 smothered the base of the fermenter?

[Yummyrum]

It all looks in the ball park to me Hebden .
You have ticked all the boxes .

One thing that has become apparent to me lately ….and I should know better… is Oxygenation prior to yeast pitch seems to make the difference between a quick successful Fermentation and a long drawn out and potentially problematic one

It’s one of those little details we forget when concentration on Temp and pH buffering

But don’t get too worried about start and finish dates .
Some washes will take a bit longer than expected.

I’ve had 200 litre washes take almost a month before I’ve called them .


Hang in there mate . The longer you wait , the more you reap

[Bradster68]

I agree Yummy . I power mix the shit outta my washes/mashes etc before pitching. A good 5 min hard aeration process.
But I do have a question. Should the PH fall below 5 for a sugar wash? I usually like mine to hang out at 6 for the first 48 hours.
I know it will drop which will be expected.
I'm learning so curious about his ph level.

[Dougmatt]

To Yummy’s point, have you given it a good stir to see if it picks back up?

[StillerBoy]

Can anyone help here, sugar wash started slow and then seems to have stopped at SG 1.012 after 9 days at 85-86f

Off hand I would be incline to say that the issue is with the amount of yeast used.. that was a drastic reduction in amounts, and that reduction will have an effect of the fermentation behavior..

Use a pencil light to check for activity, by shining it across the wash.. if there's activity, just let be, she'll get done someday.. just don't make changes so drastic..

Mars

[Ben]

I agree Yummy . I power mix the shit outta my washes/mashes etc before pitching. A good 5 min hard aeration process.
But I do have a question. Should the PH fall below 5 for a sugar wash? I usually like mine to hang out at 6 for the first 48 hours.
I know it will drop which will be expected.
I'm learning so curious about his ph level.

Depends on how fast your ferment starts. Yeast cause the pH to drop during reproduction phase (and the rest of the sugar conversion process), if you don't allow the pH drop to occur the yeast cannot intake food (can't reproduce, can't convert sugar). They are a proton pump, essentially they must release acid to intake sugar.

Yeast can continue functioning below pH 3.0, they will just be slow. It's all about balance. 6.0 or lower is fine to start, finishing in the mid/low 3's on a sugar wash is pretty normal. pH is not a golden spike, it's just a diagnostics tool and part of a big picture. There are a myriad of reasons pH might crash.

Lots of things effect ferment time, yeast health, pitch rate (this is critical and usually neglected), initial oxygenation, nutrient content, sugar content, temperature and water chemistry are the big ones. If you get them right the pH will do what it is supposed to. The better you do at optimizing their environment the better they will do at churning out low impurity ethanol.

Point is: don't try to control the pH, fix the ferment problems. pH will fix itself.

Lastly, if you are using a cheap pH meter chances are good the meter is not giving you accurate (or even usable) results.

[Bradster68]

Ahhh. Awsome info Ben. I don't usually check mine after the first 48. It does drop during that time. I just didn't realize it would be that low in the end. (Iv never actually checked after the ferment was done)I hang shells in mine but have been checking during first 48 hours not being sure I was using enough shells. Thanku for the reply.
Also on a side note my ph meter is about 50 bucks. Not sure if that's a good one but I calibrate often so I'm hoping it's giving me accurate readings.

[Bradster68]

I agree Yummy . I power mix the shit outta my washes/mashes etc before pitching. A good 5 min hard aeration process.
But I do have a question. Should the PH fall below 5 for a sugar wash? I usually like mine to hang out at 6 for the first 48 hours.
I know it will drop which will be expected.
I'm learning so curious about his ph level.

Depends on how fast your ferment starts. Yeast cause the pH to drop during reproduction phase (and the rest of the sugar conversion process), if you don't allow the pH drop to occur the yeast cannot intake food (can't reproduce, can't convert sugar). They are a proton pump, essentially they must release acid to intake sugar.

Yeast can continue functioning below pH 3.0, they will just be slow. It's all about balance. 6.0 or lower is fine to start, finishing in the mid/low 3's on a sugar wash is pretty normal. pH is not a golden spike, it's just a diagnostics tool and part of a big picture. There are a myriad of reasons pH might crash.

Lots of things effect ferment time, yeast health, pitch rate (this is critical and usually neglected), initial oxygenation, nutrient content, sugar content, temperature and water chemistry are the big ones. If you get them right the pH will do what it is supposed to. The better you do at optimizing their environment the better they will do at churning out low impurity ethanol.

Point is: don't try to control the pH, fix the ferment problems. pH will fix itself.

Lastly, if you are using a cheap pH meter chances are good the meter is not giving you accurate (or even usable) results.

Also if I can ask, what is meant by yeast health vs yeast nutrients?
1-I always use new yeast. I don't let it sit more than 6 months in the fridge and revaccum seal it everytime.
2-I use the typical multivitamin, alittle DAP, and some Epsom.
3- I check and make sure I don't go over 1.07 SG. ( that's the limit I chose based on info I found on the forum)
4- I use a temp control belt that maintains the temp within a couple degrees usually.
( I keep a close eye on this one)
5- I have well water here that seems pretty good,high iron but we use a good filtration system,it test about 6 to 7 ish PH.
I do have a pretty fast successful wash done usually 4 or 5 days. I follow TFFVODKA from the tried and true.
Just curious if I can educate myself a little more.
Thanks again

[Hebden]

Thanks everybody, I appreciate the input. To answer a couple of comments:-

To Yummy’s point, have you given it a good stir to see if it picks back up?

Not yet, I had a concern that I had read previously about "not getting" air into a wash after sugars start turning to alcohol. And so I had considered a stir but didn't know if that was "just a stir" or a "stir with a little aeration" Any advice on this detail please?

Can anyone help here, sugar wash started slow and then seems to have stopped at SG 1.012 after 9 days at 85-86f

Off hand I would be incline to say that the issue is with the amount of yeast used.. that was a drastic reduction in amounts, and that reduction will have an effect of the fermentation behavior..

Use a pencil light to check for activity, by shining it across the wash.. if there's activity, just let be, she'll get done someday.. just don't make changes so drastic..

Mars

Mars, yes it was a big yeast reduction this time, this was because I was told to look at pitch rates etc and so when I read up, I followed EC1118 guidelines and pitched right at the upper limit but not beyond, so if Lalvin are stating the pitch rate bandwidth, I should be OK shouldn't I?
(ps that is not sarcasm but a genuine question)

Yep I will use the light trick, great tip thank you, but I will wait until I stir it as I want to limit the opportunities for infections and so I am opening it up as little as possible.

Lots of things effect ferment time, yeast health, pitch rate (this is critical and usually neglected), initial oxygenation, nutrient content, sugar content, temperature and water chemistry are the big ones. If you get them right the pH will do what it is supposed to. The better you do at optimizing their environment the better they will do at churning out low impurity ethanol.

There is a chance that my aeration lacked this time, this was bacuase during my 1st ever yeast rehydration, my wash sat 30 minutes, a time in which my aeration could have bubbled out.
I stir with a drill paddle mixer and usually have loads of air as I usually pitch within a minute of filling to the level. So next time I think I will do exactly the same but with improved aeration right before my pitch, and I will be better at timing the rehydration too.

[StillerBoy]

I had a concern that I had read previously about "not getting" air into a wash after sugars start turning to alcohol.

That's an old school instruction, similar to using as air lock.. I've done experiments, and had no issues with stirring or removing the cover off a sugar wash at any stage of it fermentation and while doing some testing.. we're not making wine or beer..

I done know the 1118 yeast all that well, cause of it's cost, but went ever I've used it, it didn't preform as well as the bread yeast.. thou I use it wine making, there are better yeast for making wine..

Aeration is an important step of the process of fermentation, especially a large batch such as you're doing.. also on such large batch I would be concern of the temp increase after pitching.. yeast are very temperamental creatures..

Another point from reading what you have stated, there seem to be a lack of a process to follow.. I have a process written out so that I can follow, but the most important part of a written process, is that is makes the mind more mindful of what we are doing..

Check for activity first before stirring, and if there's is, just leave it alone, as the yeast are still actives.. and just be mindful of difference in your process..

Mars

[Hebden]

Thanks Mars, appreciated. I am happy to wait if needs be:)

ps I do have a process, I was just taken off guard with the 1st time yeast rehydration. Next time it will be much more sophisticated.

As for large batch temp increases, last run that went perfectly, temp only rose 3.5f after pitching. And so this time my pitch was intended for 82f but during rehydration this dropped to 80.2f and I pitched lower than target but seen as 85f is top end according to yeast company, I was well within the tolerances of both pitch temp and the permitted difference between rehydrated yeasts and wash temp.

[NZChris]

What form of CaCO3 did you use? Powder, block, other?

[Hebden]

Powder, it has worked just fine previously in those (listed) bills
Last two runs pH was 4.5 and 4.9 at its lows.

[shadylane]

Also if I can ask, what is meant by yeast health vs yeast nutrients?

I use the typical multivitamin, alittle DAP, and some Epsom.

Substitute boiled yeast for the multivitamin.

[Bradster68]

I'm deep in my all grain adventure at the moment. But my daughter and husband sucked back most of my vodka.2 gallons in a month. I'm due for another batch now. I will try that instead for sure. Iv been meaning to try the sugar shine anyway. It gets good reviews .

[NZChris]

That seems like a huge amount of CaCO3. I'd like to see what's in the bottom of your fermenter and check the pH of the trub.

I might use half of that amount and it's in three or four thick clam shells that survive the ferment and can be weighed afterwards.

To aerate a sugar wash, I've taken to putting an aquarium pump in the headspace and leaving it there to to agitate it with the CO2 until the ferment is over.

[StillerBoy]

I do have a process, I was just taken off guard with the 1st time yeast rehydration.

Be mindful, whenever making a change in a recipe or process, to only made one change, not multipal.. otherwise one is unable to learn from the experiment.. which is an issue with many beginner..

Having a process and not following it serves of no use, as stated by "taken off guard"..

Mars

[Ben]

Also if I can ask, what is meant by yeast health vs yeast nutrients?
1-I always use new yeast. I don't let it sit more than 6 months in the fridge and revaccum seal it everytime.
2-I use the typical multivitamin, alittle DAP, and some Epsom.
3- I check and make sure I don't go over 1.07 SG. ( that's the limit I chose based on info I found on the forum)
4- I use a temp control belt that maintains the temp within a couple degrees usually.
( I keep a close eye on this one)
5- I have well water here that seems pretty good,high iron but we use a good filtration system,it test about 6 to 7 ish PH.
I do have a pretty fast successful wash done usually 4 or 5 days. I follow TFFVODKA from the tried and true.
Just curious if I can educate myself a little more.
Thanks again

Yeast health is the condition of the yeast being pitched. If they are from a new pack how old is it, and how was it stored. I have seen yeast in brew shop inventory that was already expired, refer to the packaging. It's less of an issue if it has been handled well and kept refrigerated. When in doubt build a starter. Starter is pretty much always a good idea, even if its small and low gravity it will get the yeast metabolizing and budding, which means less lag time for the ferment.

Yeast nutrients are the extra things you put in the wash to feed them. Could be boiled yeast, DAP, yeast specific nutrient ETC. There is a balance, use the correct amount.

Starting yeast cell count is often overlooked. There are cell count calculators out there (https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pit ... alculator/). For example, if you are making a 5 gallon batch, at 1.070 SG you need between 323 Billion and 484 billion cells to start with (if your chasing really clean ferments in 2-3 days). In dry yeast that is approximately 32-48 grams, or 3-4 sachets of yeast if using the standard 11g satchets. Suddenly making a starter makes a whole lot of sense, as a 2 liter starter at 1.040 SG will get your 11g satchet up to 300+b cells overnight.

Overpitching is not recommended, it will cause a pH crash.

The high iron well water wouldn't frighten me, the residual iron will stay in the still. You may be better off using it unfiltered, keeping the minerality higher, but its hard to say without a water test. I would run a batch without filtering and see how it performs. Hard water tends to be better for sugar washes, since there isn't much in the sugar to buffer the solution (which is why oyster shells are often used).

220g EC1118 (previous working attempt had 500g pitched direct to wash)

With a starting gravity of about 1.070 you underpitched yeast. Your starting yeast pitch should have been between 340 and 510 grams of yeast. That would account for slow/incomplete ferment. Thats assuming very fresh yeast, I would pitch at least 400g next time. And probably why it worked great last time at 500g.

[Bradster68]

Awsome. Thanks again Ben for clarifying.

[NZChris]

220g would be the very top end of Lallemand's recommendations. I use less than a quarter of that, prove it first, aerate well and look after the temperature.

[Hebden]

I do have a process, I was just taken off guard with the 1st time yeast rehydration.

Be mindful, whenever making a change in a recipe or process, to only made one change, not multipal.. otherwise one is unable to learn from the experiment.. which is an issue with many beginner..

Having a process and not following it serves of no use, as stated by "taken off guard"..

Mars

Thanks Mars, sorry but I hadn't meant what you meant by "process" previously, I now get what you mean and will adhere to a process fully in future:)

220g EC1118 (previous working attempt had 500g pitched direct to wash)

With a starting gravity of about 1.070 you underpitched yeast. Your starting yeast pitch should have been between 340 and 510 grams of yeast. That would account for slow/incomplete ferment. Thats assuming very fresh yeast, I would pitch at least 400g next time. And probably why it worked great last time at 500g.

220g would be the very top end of Lallemand's recommendations. I use less than a quarter of that, prove it first, aerate well and look after the temperature.

Ahh now I am confused as to what to do next time guys, I did follow the Lallemand guidelines and pitch at the upper limit, but I am not skilled enough to know if and when the pitching guidelines should be broken.
For my next run, I had planned to return my wash bill to the previous one but with the lowered yeasties at 220g so as to return to process.

I did use the torch trick yesterday to shine into the liqour and there is not much to see within the wash, there is however some largish surface bubbles occasionally popping and that must mean theres at least some slow fermentation action mustn't it. So far I have just left it alone, but I have considered a gentle stir of the trub.

EDIT: Well I thought I'd post a picture of the wash to show the bubbles and so took readings. pH 3.3 SG 1.01 & temp 84.4f
With SG static, I couldn't help bit give it a stir. I didn't aerate it, maybe I should have done.

[Saltbush Bill]

Are those bubbles active or just sitting there ? .......that will tell some folk a lot.
EDIT: leave it be for a week .....it hasn't even settled yet.
What does it taste like ??.......now and in a weeks time.

[StillerBoy]

I couldn't help bit give it a stir. I didn't aerate it, maybe I should have done.

From the picture, it was taken after it was aerated, correct..

so took readings. pH 3.3 SG 1.01 & temp 84.4f

Also from the above statement, the Ph is an issue in my view, plus I have no idea what 1.01 means. and not way to compare it with what was a few days back..

Mars

[Hebden]

Are those bubbles active or just sitting there ? .......that will tell some folk a lot.
EDIT: leave it be for a week .....it hasn't even settled yet.
What does it taste like ??.......now and in a weeks time.

Those bubbles just seem to be sat there, I didn't taste it.

I couldn't help bit give it a stir. I didn't aerate it, maybe I should have done.

From the picture, it was taken after it was aerated, correct..

so took readings. pH 3.3 SG 1.01 & temp 84.4f

Also from the above statement, the Ph is an issue in my view, plus I have no idea what 1.01 means. and not way to compare it with what was a few days back..

Mars

No Mars, picture was taken before it was stirred, they're dormant with very minor occasional popping.

pH 1.012 and is exactly as it was at the opening of this thread.

Not had chance to look since my stir as I had to go out. But immediately after stirring, there weren't many signs of life.

[StillerBoy]

No Mars, picture was taken before it was stirred, they're dormant with very minor occasional popping.

pH 1.012 and is exactly as it was at the opening of this thread.

I personally don't like the behavior as pictured.. furthermore, the SG has remain at the same level, which would indicate, that whatever took place during the fermentation period, it's not going to be overcome, thereby it's done..

I would be running a soon as possible, give it a good degassing first, give it a few days like 3 days or so, then rack it and run it.. a finished wash should look like pictured below..

Mars

[Ben]

220g would be the very top end of Lallemand's recommendations. I use less than a quarter of that, prove it first, aerate well and look after the temperature.

Lallemand has (what to me seem to be) uncomfortably low pitch rate calculations. There pitching guidance is .35-.40M cells/l/plato. I would not recommend that in a home setting for a sugar wash (I wouldn't even do it for a week ale), 1.0 at a minimum, 1.5 would be better. You don't have the nutrients/buffering of wort or must, and you are breaking down sucrose rather than fructose or maltose which is not as easy for the yeast (they have to break sucrose into glucose and fructose by producing invertase).

Those pitch rates are also expecting good environmental control, which may not be there in a distillers sugar wash. You are also finishing with a higher alcohol content than Lallemand is recommending for... a beer would finish around 1.015-1.020 or 6.5-7.2% abv, sugar wash finishing dry will be 9.2%, you are outside their guidelines.

[rgreen2002]

Are those bubbles active or just sitting there ? .......that will tell some folk a lot.
EDIT: leave it be for a week .....it hasn't even settled yet.
What does it taste like ??.......now and in a weeks time.

How does it taste? Still taste a little surgery? If so then you got some more work, if not then that might be the end.

What was the temperature?

pH of 3.3 is a bit low for my liking. I would put my finger on that as your cause if I had to guess.

[Ben]

pH of 3.3 is a bit low for my liking. I would put my finger on that as your cause if I had to guess.

So what cause the pH drop?

pH drop does not cause a fermentation to fail, it is a symptom of a failed fermentation.

[Hebden]

Well that seems about right, from memory my was is 6.5%abv ish.
But last time I ran with tge same sugar content, I hit 11%abv with the same sugar.

Therefore can I be sure that there's sugar left can't I? So do i add yeast?

[StillerBoy]

herefore can I be sure that there's sugar left can't I? So do i add yeast?

Yeah you can assume that there's still some sugars.. which bring up the point of being mindful of that, cause issues with stripping will arise of puking..

But here the issue.. the ferment environment isn't healthy any more, contaminated by whatever happen..
So playing around with it, in my view, is a waste of time and effort.. why.. because there was to much variable to the other wash done, plus the picture show that it's not healthy anymore..

Mars