Color of Spirit - Toasted and Charred vs. Charred

[Laredo7mm]

I am running some experiments on toasted and charred oak sticks and just charred oak sticks and have noticed something significant very early on. My oak sticks are 1/2 x 1/2 x 6” and all come from the same plank of oak. For this experiment, I toasted some of the sticks at 275F for 1.5 hours. I then charred a couple of the toasted sticks and a couple un-toasted sticks with a blowtorch. Two toasted and charred in one jar and two just charred in the other. Both jars filled with the same 125 proof spirits. After two cycles of nuclear aging, there is what I am seeing, on the left is toasted and charred, on the right is just charred:

526B0735-A180-4024-9A2A-9DE13291309E.jpeg

I am surprised to see such a big difference in the color. Is this normal? I did notice that when charring the un-toasted sticks they popped and crackled more than the toasted ones. Is the color difference due to a lower moisture content (higher density?) in the toasted sticks or is it just variation in the wood itself? I am going to do another nuke cycle on both and then let them sit for a few weeks before tasting.

My goal is to find out what combination of toasting/charring I like the best and will then use that for aging larger quantities of likker with no distressed aging techniques.

[still_stirrin]

Let’s see if Otis finds this thread and posts. He’s done a lot of “woodwork”, so I would defer to him for the answers to your questions.
ss

[jonnys_spirit]

They’re going to be different but the toasted/charred used 1/2 the amount. That’s probably the biggest difference re; color - double the wood.

Cheers!
-j

[Laredo7mm]

They’re going to be different but the toasted/charred used 1/2 the amount. That’s probably the biggest difference re; color - double the wood.

It is just kind of hard to see both sticks in the lighter colored jar. I stated in my original post:

…Two toasted and charred in one jar and two just charred in the other. Both jars filled with the same 125 proof spirits…

[Laredo7mm]

Here is a picture after the third and final nuking in the microwave. They both got a bit darker but you can also see that the liquid level has dropped. I wonder if it is from evaporation during the heating or the wood sticks getting saturated. Could be a combination of both. They both smell great, haven’t tasted them yet. I might do some freezer cycles but no more microwaving.

A5A5A0CC-4516-4889-9BD0-9E11DAA9CB7B.jpeg

I am pondering if toasting the wood inhibits the color by changing the wood chemistry. I don’t know what goes on during that 90 minutes at 275F, but it might affect how the wood directly beneath the char imparts color into the spirit. I reckon time will tell if it ever catches up with the just charred sample.

I am assuming that the toast goes all the way through the stick, but at 275F, there isn’t much of a color difference from un-toasted oak. I put them in the oven at the 1/2 x 1/2 x 6” size. I did some others at 400F, but those were 1 x 1 x 6” for 3 hours. I cut those down to the 1/2 x 1/2 x 6” size and they were toasted through out the whole stick. Next time when I do 400F I am going to wrap them in foil. It was quite smokey in my house. Lol. Not sure how accurate my oven is though.

[HDNB]

bois blanc boy did a good experiment on this a few years ago. he had 16 jars set up with toast only, (different temps), char only (#1,2,3,4) and toast and char

the general gist of it was the toast gave over flavour (diff temp=diff flavour) , the char gave over color. (more char = more color)

i'm stumped as to why yours did not follow the same result. are the sticks in the darker one a bit more charred?

the idea of char is the carmelization of wood sugars (syrup), the more you char the darker and deeper into the wood you go. not sure about the whole organic chemistry behind the toasting temps, but there are flavour charts on the site that will describe the different flavour profile from target temps.

maybe look up boisblancboy thread and oak& age the T-pee way for some more info.

[Laredo7mm]

Right on, I will check out his findings. I don’t really have a way to gauge how much char I am giving each stick since I was just holding the stick in blacksmith tongs and hitting them with my propane torch until each side had and even glow of orange coals. I did the toasted ones first and then the un-toasted sticks. I did notice that the un-toasted sticks crackled and popped more during charring than the toasted ones. I may have given them more char and didn’t realize. I will try it again and be more mindful to the consistency of my char. I have plenty of white dog to play with so no worries. I’ll drink it all sooner or later.

[Laredo7mm]

I just did a quick read of BoisBlancBoy’s testing. I am going to char up a couple of my 400F toasted sticks and add them to the test. That looked to be his favorite combination.

[OtisT]

Hi Laredo7mm. It is normal for the same wood treated differently to give you different colors. The char does seem to add a reddish tint as compared to toasting alone. I believe it is the temp differences in your toasting and charming processes that result in the different colors. I did some comparisons using various woods and treatments and took pictures of them if you want to compare results. Look in two of the threads in my signature below, Learning to Toast and also the Fruitwood post.

Your raw wood crackled more during charring than your toasted wood because of the moisture level difference in the two pieces of wood. Toasted wood has had most of the moisture pulled out already, while the raw wood will pop and crack as that moisture in the wood vaporizes while you char the wood.

Otis

[OtisT]

Right on, I will check out his findings. I don’t really have a way to gauge how much char I am giving each stick since I was just holding the stick in blacksmith tongs and hitting them with my propane torch until each side had and even glow of orange coals. I did the toasted ones first and then the un-toasted sticks. I did notice that the un-toasted sticks crackled and popped more during charring than the toasted ones. I may have given them more char and didn’t realize. I will try it again and be more mindful to the consistency of my char. I have plenty of white dog to play with so no worries. I’ll drink it all sooner or later.

Most info on comparing char levels I have seen go by looks of the char surface. Single Malt Yinzer posted a char level comparison picture on one of my threads a few years back. viewtopic.php?p=7485198

I char to desired levels by controlling the exact amount of time under the torch. At first I had to torch samples of wood for various lengths of time then look at the surfaces for a comparison to the picture SMY sent me. Once you know the time for your torch, it’s easy to get consistent results.

[Laredo7mm]

Here is the latest picture.

35422164-259D-468C-A321-D6BE1759F129.jpeg

From left to right;
1) 90 proof spirits with its second stick of 400F toasted oak. It’s been on oak for a couple months
2) 125 proof spirits with two sticks of 400F toasted and charred oak. 3 nuclear aging cycles and one freezer cycle.
3) 125 proof spirits with two sticks of 275F toasted and charred oak. 3 nuclear aging cycles and one freezer cycle.
4) 125 proof spirits with two sticks of un-toasted charred oak. 3 nuclear aging cycles and one freezer cycle.

All of my toasting is done so the sticks are toasted all the way through. This experiment tells me that thoroughly toasting and charring probably has no value. I think I would be better off mixing only toasted and only charred sticks if I want to try and get flavors from toasted wood that I can’t get from the charred. It think that the thorough toasting changes the chemistry of the char. I added some charred sticks to my spirits that have been on 400F toasted sticks for 3.5 months. Hoping with will add some more flavor.

[Laredo7mm]

…I char to desired levels by controlling the exact amount of time under the torch. At first I had to torch samples of wood for various lengths of time then look at the surfaces for a comparison to the picture SMY sent me. Once you know the time for your torch, it’s easy to get consistent results.

I charred some more sticks yesterday and paid attention to how they looked. They all looked pretty consistent. I’m sure it will be second nature soon. I may build myself a little resistance wire heater for charring my oak sticks. Something that you can just pass the stick through and char it on all sides at the same time. Not sure if it will be any better than using a torch but I have plenty of resistance wire laying around so it won’t really cost me anything to try it.

[jonnys_spirit]

Here is the latest picture.


35422164-259D-468C-A321-D6BE1759F129.jpeg


From left to right;
1) 90 proof spirits with its second stick of 400F toasted oak. It’s been on oak for a couple months
2) 125 proof spirits with two sticks of 400F toasted and charred oak. 3 nuclear aging cycles and one freezer cycle.
3) 125 proof spirits with two sticks of 275F toasted and charred oak. 3 nuclear aging cycles and one freezer cycle.
4) 125 proof spirits with two sticks of un-toasted charred oak. 3 nuclear aging cycles and one freezer cycle.

All of my toasting is done so the sticks are toasted all the way through. This experiment tells me that thoroughly toasting and charring probably has no value. I think I would be better off mixing only toasted and only charred sticks if I want to try and get flavors from toasted wood that I can’t get from the charred. It think that the thorough toasting changes the chemistry of the char. I added some charred sticks to my spirits that have been on 400F toasted sticks for 3.5 months. Hoping with will add some more flavor.

When you char a raw stick (but not all the way through) there will be degree or gradient of toast under the char down to less toast or raw towards the middle. Compared to a toast which treats or toasts to a consistent level all the way through.

Cut some in half to compare the insides.

The result that yields a gradient might provide some depth of dimension where a consistent toast may provide a more mono-dimensional profile..

Cheers!
-jonny

[shadylane]

I am running some experiments on toasted and charred oak sticks and just charred oak sticks and have noticed something significant very early on.

I cheat and divide the problems of character and color.
First, I do what's needed for character, and then if needed, use caramelized sugar for color.

[EricTheRed]

After a few runs using only new toasted (220 3hrs) and charred (alligator skin) i started mixing things up.
My typical regemine now is
2 x new toasted
2 x new toasted and charred
2 x used toasted with new char
2 x used toasted and charred - scraped and recharred.

Sticks are 20x38x150mm in 10 litres 63%

I find a better smoother flavour and less risk of over oaking