? on aging

[sadie33]

I made my first UJSSM and between gen 1-3 had enough for a 2L oak barrel. I tasted it the 1st and 2nd week. The directions said 2-4 weeks.

At 2 weeks I thought it was REALLY good. It was sweet and smooth and really good.

It was suggested that it takes a lot longer than 2 weeks and take out a sample, keep aging it and tasting every week. I had some white left over that I top it off with. It weighs about 6.11 oz. when topped off and in the week it goes down to 6.97-6.102 oz.

I just took a sample out and tried it (proofed from 60% down to 40%). I did a blind taste test for my husband and we both like the one aged only 2 weeks. It has better flavor, it's sweeter and smoother.

The other one doesn't taste over oaked (from what I've read that would taste like). It just doesn't have the flavor, smoothness or sweetness the 2 week sample has.

So now I'm wondering why. Is it because my 2 week sample was never topped off with fresh? Is it because the barrel wasn't full so the whiskey to oak ratio was different? Or maybe I only like it aged 2 weeks?

I have about 2 gal of UJSSM low wines I need to do a spirit run on this weekend. I have another 2L oak cask and was thinking of using that and seeing if I can duplicate my 2 week sample.

Any insight or advice is appreciated.

[Sporacle]

If you like the 2 week aged UJ better then only age it 2 weeks, your the one drinking it so age it to your preference.
What I will say is that a product often gives an indication of potential at a very early stage, then goes through a number of phases during the aging process before finally settling. Or at least this is my experience

[sadie33]

If you like the 2 week aged UJ better then only age it 2 weeks, your the one drinking it so age it to your preference.
What I will say is that a product often gives an indication of potential at a very early stage, then goes through a number of phases during the aging process before finally settling. Or at least this is my experience

I do remember reading something about that; about it being good, then awkward then good again. Since it doesn't taste over oaked yet, I'm thinking of letting it go another week or so and see what happens.

I just remembered I was going to use my other 2L barrel for my Honey Bear Bourbon...hmmmm.

thanks

[rubberduck71]

If $$$ is "sort of" not a roadblock to you, consider a solera barrel system?

You'll need at least 3 barrels. And as you bleed off say, a liter of product, you're backfilling with white into the first barrel, & then on down the line.

I will say that sub-4 L barrels have TREMENDOUS angels share. And depending on the manufacturer, you can have worse encounters. Weigh them every 2-4 weeks to fend off the angels share.

Find your preferred balance between aging in barrels, aging with sticks/spirals/chips/etc...

Don't underestimate sugarheads on A/G recipes.

Have fun, experiment, & report back to your brethren here on HD site.

[Saltbush Bill]

Weigh them every 2-4 weeks to fend off the angels share.

Weighing them doesn't fend off the Angels, just lets you know how much the little bastards have drunk.
I find it easier to make a "dip stick" out of oak and use that to see whats in the barrel......lots easier than shifting barrels around.

[rubberduck71]

Weighing them doesn't fend off the Angels, just lets you know how much the little bastards have drunk.
I find it easier to make a "dip stick" out of oak and use that to see whats in the barrel......lots easier than shifting barrels around.

Excellent point! But if they're smaller, as in OP's case 2L: easy enough to move.

This post is giving me traumatic flashbacks to mine about small barrel problems: viewtopic.php?p=7722942#p7722942

[sadie33]

Weigh them every 2-4 weeks to fend off the angels share.

Weighing them doesn't fend off the Angels, just lets you know how much the little bastards have drunk.
I find it easier to make a "dip stick" out of oak and use that to see whats in the barrel......lots easier than shifting barrels around.

hey, hey...don't go offending the little Angels now...I don't want them throwing a party and getting all drunk.

[sadie33]

If $$$ is "sort of" not a roadblock to you, consider a solera barrel system?

You'll need at least 3 barrels. And as you bleed off say, a liter of product, you're backfilling with white into the first barrel, & then on down the line.

I will say that sub-4 L barrels have TREMENDOUS angels share. And depending on the manufacturer, you can have worse encounters. Weigh them every 2-4 weeks to fend off the angels share.

Find your preferred balance between aging in barrels, aging with sticks/spirals/chips/etc...

Don't underestimate sugarheads on A/G recipes.

Have fun, experiment, & report back to your brethren here on HD site.

Not sure I can do that for a while. It's not a money thing, it's a quantity thing. I only have a 5 gal pot still. I've been stillin hard since Jan and only have the one 2L barrel filled. I'll be taking the summer off for a few different reasons and then pick it back up in the winter again. But I can't see myself being able to make enough, but who knows...maybe.

[sadie33]

Weighing them doesn't fend off the Angels, just lets you know how much the little bastards have drunk.
I find it easier to make a "dip stick" out of oak and use that to see whats in the barrel......lots easier than shifting barrels around.

Excellent point! But if they're smaller, as in OP's case 2L: easy enough to move.

This post is giving me traumatic flashbacks to mine about small barrel problems: viewtopic.php?p=7722942#p7722942

I actually had read your thread before buying the 2L barrel. I reread it just now and someone mentioned Aquaman...got me thinking...anyone ever fill their barrel with whiskey, then put that barrel in a bucket of water and age it that way? Or does it need oxygen to age? I'm thinking the Angels can't get to it in the water?

[Dougmatt]

I just took a sample out and tried it (proofed from 60% down to 40%). I did a blind taste test for my husband and we both like the one aged only 2 weeks. It has better flavor, it's sweeter and smoother.

The other one doesn't taste over oaked (from what I've read that would taste like). It just doesn't have the flavor, smoothness or sweetness the 2 week sample has.

So now I'm wondering why. Is it because my 2 week sample was never topped off with fresh? Is it because the barrel wasn't full so the whiskey to oak ratio was different? Or maybe I only like it aged 2 weeks?

Any insight or advice is appreciated.

Hi Sadie, one question for you is how long did you wait after proofing down? The proofing process “shocks” the spirit. I personally like to wait about 2 weeks after proofing to start enjoying it. In this case you tasted one spirit which was given a rest (the 2 week) against another which I don’t know how long it rested which may not have integrated yet, That lack of integration for me usually tastes watery, flat, bland but give it a week or two and it tastes much better. The older the spirit, the worse the “shock” from what I’ve experienced.

You may also want to consider “slow proofing” to avoid saponification and preserve your flavors. This is proofing down in stages.

That said, I am a believer that less is more in those little barrels as I’ve said in other threads.

[HDNB]

If $$$ is "sort of" not a roadblock to you, consider a solera barrel system?

You'll need at least 3 barrels. And as you bleed off say, a liter of product, you're backfilling with white into the first barrel, & then on down the line.

I will say that sub-4 L barrels have TREMENDOUS angels share. And depending on the manufacturer, you can have worse encounters. Weigh them every 2-4 weeks to fend off the angels share.

Find your preferred balance between aging in barrels, aging with sticks/spirals/chips/etc...

Don't underestimate sugarheads on A/G recipes.

Have fun, experiment, & report back to your brethren here on HD site.

Not sure I can do that for a while. It's not a money thing, it's a quantity thing. I only have a 5 gal pot still. I've been stillin hard since Jan and only have the one 2L barrel filled. I'll be taking the summer off for a few different reasons and then pick it back up in the winter again. But I can't see myself being able to make enough, but who knows...maybe.

5 gallon is a tough grind. hard to make cuts too on that volume. i started on a 13 gallon milk can and within a year i had made so much booze, there is still a bunch of it around almost a decade later.
a rain barrel sized fermenter helps a lot. make about 4 charges at once.....do that like 4 times and you'll have 15 or 20 gallons aging in no time.
I prolly poured out 40 gallons that first year too, just learning how to make a decent product (well that and i contaminated the first 5 gallons with flux because i didn't clean the still well enough.)

[sadie33]

I just took a sample out and tried it (proofed from 60% down to 40%). I did a blind taste test for my husband and we both like the one aged only 2 weeks. It has better flavor, it's sweeter and smoother.

The other one doesn't taste over oaked (from what I've read that would taste like). It just doesn't have the flavor, smoothness or sweetness the 2 week sample has.

So now I'm wondering why. Is it because my 2 week sample was never topped off with fresh? Is it because the barrel wasn't full so the whiskey to oak ratio was different? Or maybe I only like it aged 2 weeks?

Any insight or advice is appreciated.

Hi Sadie, one question for you is how long did you wait after proofing down? The proofing process “shocks” the spirit. I personally like to wait about 2 weeks after proofing to start enjoying it. In this case you tasted one spirit which was given a rest (the 2 week) against another which I don’t know how long it rested which may not have integrated yet, That lack of integration for me usually tastes watery, flat, bland but give it a week or two and it tastes much better. The older the spirit, the worse the “shock” from what I’ve experienced.

You may also want to consider “slow proofing” to avoid saponification and preserve your flavors. This is proofing down in stages.

That said, I am a believer that less is more in those little barrels as I’ve said in other threads.

It's in the barrel at 60%. I put like 1/2" in the bottom of a shot glass and add a splash of water to get it to 40%, then I sip it. It's not even a shots worth. That's how I proof it down to sample it. Not sure we're talking about the same thing though as I don't think I would wait 2 weeks to try my sample.

[Dancing4dan]

Hi Sadie, one question for you is how long did you wait after proofing down? The proofing process “shocks” the spirit. I personally like to wait about 2 weeks after proofing to start enjoying it. In this case you tasted one spirit which was given a rest (the 2 week) against another which I don’t know how long it rested which may not have integrated yet, That lack of integration for me usually tastes watery, flat, bland but give it a week or two and it tastes much better. The older the spirit, the worse the “shock” from what I’ve experienced.

You may also want to consider “slow proofing” to avoid saponification and preserve your flavors. This is proofing down in stages.

This makes a big difference. Do a comparison of a drink proofed down a week ago against one proofed down right out of the bottle. The difference can be dramatic. I was surprised at the difference.

I also started proofing down in small increments over time and find there is a difference.

[Dougmatt]

I just took a sample out and tried it (proofed from 60% down to 40%). I did a blind taste test for my husband and we both like the one aged only 2 weeks. It has better flavor, it's sweeter and smoother.

The other one doesn't taste over oaked (from what I've read that would taste like). It just doesn't have the flavor, smoothness or sweetness the 2 week sample has.

So now I'm wondering why. Is it because my 2 week sample was never topped off with fresh? Is it because the barrel wasn't full so the whiskey to oak ratio was different? Or maybe I only like it aged 2 weeks?

Any insight or advice is appreciated.

Hi Sadie, one question for you is how long did you wait after proofing down? The proofing process “shocks” the spirit. I personally like to wait about 2 weeks after proofing to start enjoying it. In this case you tasted one spirit which was given a rest (the 2 week) against another which I don’t know how long it rested which may not have integrated yet, That lack of integration for me usually tastes watery, flat, bland but give it a week or two and it tastes much better. The older the spirit, the worse the “shock” from what I’ve experienced.

You may also want to consider “slow proofing” to avoid saponification and preserve your flavors. This is proofing down in stages.

That said, I am a believer that less is more in those little barrels as I’ve said in other threads.

It's in the barrel at 60%. I put like 1/2" in the bottom of a shot glass and add a splash of water to get it to 40%, then I sip it. It's not even a shots worth. That's how I proof it down to sample it. Not sure we're talking about the same thing though as I don't think I would wait 2 weeks to try my sample.

I understand what you are doing, what I am saying is that comparing what you are doing to something that has rested is not a fair comparison….

Trying your sample this way is fine, but I was trying to help you understand that it will taste very different after a rest and that it can’t be immediately directly compared to your prior sample.

[sadie33]

I don't understand what you guys are talking about.

How do you guys sample your aging product to find out when it is oaked enough?

[Sporacle]

I'll have a crack at this Sadie, I will taste my product proofed down with water immediately.
I am doing that now with a rum straight of the still.
I understand that this is not what the final product will taste like but it gives me an idea of my cut points.

Similarly the taste I get proofing down a barrel aged product with water and tasting straight away gives me an indication of the final product.

The decision on oak is based on time and experience.
The first I have plenty of, the second not enough.

Aging of spirits is exactly that, it's aging. It's not days. The hardest part of distillation and fermenting is leaving stuff alone.

Generally when my stuff is getting close to where I think it should be I add a bit of water to the barrel every week or so until I'm about 5abv over what my bottle strength will be. That way if I find I've underestimated then I can let it go a bit longer.

It's hard to explain, the more you distill and age the easier it is to understand.
Some of the big boys are putting stuff away for 12 years, that's patience

[sadie33]

okay, all of that makes sense and sounds like what I am doing. Proofing it down with water and tasting immediately.

I've read people top off their barrels with fresh product, so that's what I did. I don't think I've heard about topping it off with water when getting close, though I do know it needs to be watered down to the proof you want to drink it at, then aged for as long as you want to age it (off oak once you get all the flavor form the oak you want).

but I'm still kinda wondering why it tasted so much better the first time...I guess it's like you said- the decision on oak is based on time and experience. There are SO many things I didn't understand when I first started, that now makes perfect sense.

thanks

[Saltbush Bill]

Like many things it also comes down to personal taste....Some like it white, some like it lightly oaked........others want to go the whole hog.
Do what you like and think tastes good. Try different things along the way and learn from those experiences.

[sadie33]

okay, so I tasted this last night (had a toast to my last UJSSM run for the season) and it tasted like it did the first time I liked it. I didn't think it would go back. I thought I missed it; the flavor I was looking for. I am doing my cuts on my last UJSSM tomorrow. I think I am going to empty my barrel and put my new stuff in it. I don't want to loose this flavor I really like. BUT part of me wonders-what if it gets better the longer it sits in the keg. So I am going to let this next batch age longer and see what happens. I am so glad I like it again!

[HDNB]

had some rum going back years that was undrinkable. tasted like burnt rubber. after 3 years it still tasted bad. being a large barrel, and me being to cheap to just throw it out... i left it there. year 4 started showing promise, year 5 it was interesting and now at 6 years it's a special reserve kinda spirit. I'm bottling it now.

never underestimate the power of time and oak.

wellllll that, and if you make good booze to start you may not have to wait as long!

[OtisT]

had some rum going back years that was undrinkable. tasted like burnt rubber. after 3 years it still tasted bad. being a large barrel, and me being to cheap to just throw it out... i left it there. year 4 started showing promise, year 5 it was interesting and now at 6 years it's a special reserve kinda spirit. I'm bottling it now.

never underestimate the power of time and oak.

wellllll that, and if you make good booze to start you may not have to wait as long!

I have a similar experience with time/oak working out a bad product over time. 5 years ago I was experimenting with creating high ester spirits. I found myself with a rum and a bourbon that both had a really bad medicinal (bad aid) smell/taste. I dumped the barrel of rum after two years, but I kept the bourbon. It’s been over 5 years now and that bourbon is one of my favorites that I break out when my best friends are over. It’s still in the bad motivator barrel and likely to stay there for more years as i slowly drain it a few 100 ml at a time.

In my limited experience with this I’ve found that a heads heavy spirit is more likely to work out over time on oak, but I have not had any luck with tails heavy spirits.

I don’t think all things are salvageable with time/oak, but if it’s boarderline or special to you and you have the space, I say give it a try.