Plates One and Done vs. Pot Strip Spirit

[EricTheRed]

I think you would regret buying a 2 inch, there is a reason that most sold or built are 4 inch.

that is the reason i decided against it, regardless of the price
i get 93 - 93.5% corrected ABV - so good enough for GIN & Vodka - no need to spend more money!

[NZChris]

Might as well say my 2 cents worth.

The bad side of one run and done, is having a mash boiled for hours during a reflux run.
Neither potstilled nor continuous distillation has this problem.
I'm a firm believer in stripping runs.
A very important tails cut is made when the boiler is shut off and drained.

I never quite thought of a stripping run that way, but I have to agree with it. Whiskey, brandy, rum, neutral, whatever, I shut down my strips at points that I know work for me from my experiences running my particular still.

[Siva283]

I have a 4inch 4 plate on a 30g boiler. I ran a pot still for 15 years. Switched to the flute 3 years ago. I havent looked back. If I want alot of flavor and smearing I turn the reflux off. Other times I compress the heads and tails and run the hearts with no reflux.
Most of the time I run high reflux for heads. Dial the reflux way back for the hearts and as they slowdown. I add more heat to the boiler and more water to the reflux condensor.

In short I get to choose the level of flavor I want by the way I run the still. So my flute can be a pot or a flute and if I run slow I think it will keep pace with a packed column though at a slower rate.

[Twisted Brick]

I have a 4inch 4 plate on a 30g boiler. I ran a pot still for 15 years. Switched to the flute 3 years ago. I havent looked back. If I want alot of flavor and smearing I turn the reflux off. Other times I compress the heads and tails and run the hearts with no reflux.
Most of the time I run high reflux for heads. Dial the reflux way back for the hearts and as they slowdown. I add more heat to the boiler and more water to the reflux condensor.

In short I get to choose the level of flavor I want by the way I run the still. So my flute can be a pot or a flute and if I run slow I think it will keep pace with a packed column though at a slower rate.

I take back what I said earlier about an optimized plater possibly stealing some of the handcrafted magic that happens in a pot. Your explanation is inspiring.

[Siva283]

I have a 4inch 4 plate on a 30g boiler. I ran a pot still for 15 years. Switched to the flute 3 years ago. I havent looked back. If I want alot of flavor and smearing I turn the reflux off. Other times I compress the heads and tails and run the hearts with no reflux.
Most of the time I run high reflux for heads. Dial the reflux way back for the hearts and as they slowdown. I add more heat to the boiler and more water to the reflux condensor.

In short I get to choose the level of flavor I want by the way I run the still. So my flute can be a pot or a flute and if I run slow I think it will keep pace with a packed column though at a slower rate.

I take back what I said earlier about an optimized plater possibly stealing some of the handcrafted magic that happens in a pot. Your explanation is inspiring.

I can take off at %93 without even trying. However I would not call it a neutral. Close but not quite. I just did a run the other day that was half corn and half oats fermented in KV6-116 under pitched on purpose. It has a very strong butterscotch smell and flavor. I took the hearts off between %80-%85 ran that way till the bottom glass started to fog up which said the tails were coming. Once I saw that I switched collection jars and a some of those I will throw in anyway. I like tails though. Sometimes I add enough it can get ever so slightly cloudy but to me the flavor I want is there.
To me the Flute is the swiss army knife of stills. You can do so much just in how you run it.
I have a hard time picking a cut over point on the pot still. With the flute I have no problems.
We are all different like different things and do well everything different. But the flute gives you options you have the plates if you want or need them and if you dont just dont reflux at all. If you prefer the potstill well now you have a pot still that can compress heads and tails to make your heart cut bigger.

[werkkrew]

I have a 4inch 4 plate on a 30g boiler. I ran a pot still for 15 years. Switched to the flute 3 years ago. I havent looked back. If I want alot of flavor and smearing I turn the reflux off. Other times I compress the heads and tails and run the hearts with no reflux.
Most of the time I run high reflux for heads. Dial the reflux way back for the hearts and as they slowdown. I add more heat to the boiler and more water to the reflux condensor.

In short I get to choose the level of flavor I want by the way I run the still. So my flute can be a pot or a flute and if I run slow I think it will keep pace with a packed column though at a slower rate.

I take back what I said earlier about an optimized plater possibly stealing some of the handcrafted magic that happens in a pot. Your explanation is inspiring.

I can take off at %93 without even trying. However I would not call it a neutral. Close but not quite. I just did a run the other day that was half corn and half oats fermented in KV6-116 under pitched on purpose. It has a very strong butterscotch smell and flavor. I took the hearts off between %80-%85 ran that way till the bottom glass started to fog up which said the tails were coming. Once I saw that I switched collection jars and a some of those I will throw in anyway. I like tails though. Sometimes I add enough it can get ever so slightly cloudy but to me the flavor I want is there.
To me the Flute is the swiss army knife of stills. You can do so much just in how you run it.
I have a hard time picking a cut over point on the pot still. With the flute I have no problems.
We are all different like different things and do well everything different. But the flute gives you options you have the plates if you want or need them and if you dont just dont reflux at all. If you prefer the potstill well now you have a pot still that can compress heads and tails to make your heart cut bigger.

This is a great way to look at it that I hadn't really considered. My main concern with turning reflux off and then back on during a run would be allowing the dephlegmator to get too hot. For one, the fittings going into mine are john guest made of some sort of plastic which could melt, and for two, allowing the condenser to get really hot and then subsequently introducing cold water to it seems like a bad idea.

For this reason I always have to keep at least some amount of water flowing through it which introduces some amount of reflux, however small. The only way I can see running my plated column as something close to a true pot still would be to either not attach the dephlegmator or not run any water through it at any point during the run.

[Saltbush Bill]

Why is your still built that way , so that it can't be used in pot mode ?
Can't you change the fittings on the dephlegmator?
I've never heard of a plated column that can't be run as a pot before.

[werkkrew]

Why is your still built that way , so that it can't be used in pot mode ?
Can't you change the fittings on the dephlegmator?
I've never heard of a plated column that can't be run as a pot before.

It's all tri-clamp and modular, when I want to run with plates I build that column, for pot still I have a different 3" column.

What I wouldn't want to do is build my column with the plates + dephlegmator with the intention of not running it as a plater.

I can configure my still any which way thanks to all the tri-clamp stuff and the multitude of different bits I have around and I never considered doing a run where I switch from plates/reflux to pot still mode mid-run. As such I probably should change the fittings.

[tommysb]

This is a great way to look at it that I hadn't really considered. My main concern with turning reflux off and then back on during a run would be allowing the dephlegmator to get too hot. For one, the fittings going into mine are john guest made of some sort of plastic which could melt, and for two, allowing the condenser to get really hot and then subsequently introducing cold water to it seems like a bad idea.

It won't (shouldn't) get too hot.

Maximum vapor temperature would be what, around 100c? I think the john guest fittings can take that. They certainly wouldn't 'melt' at 100c. JG definitely make some fittings that can withstand peak temp of over 100c for central heating systems.

If yours aren't temp rated, then use a different connector.

[Siva283]

I have a 4inch 4 plate on a 30g boiler. I ran a pot still for 15 years. Switched to the flute 3 years ago. I havent looked back. If I want alot of flavor and smearing I turn the reflux off. Other times I compress the heads and tails and run the hearts with no reflux.
Most of the time I run high reflux for heads. Dial the reflux way back for the hearts and as they slowdown. I add more heat to the boiler and more water to the reflux condensor.

In short I get to choose the level of flavor I want by the way I run the still. So my flute can be a pot or a flute and if I run slow I think it will keep pace with a packed column though at a slower rate.

I take back what I said earlier about an optimized plater possibly stealing some of the handcrafted magic that happens in a pot. Your explanation is inspiring.

I can take off at %93 without even trying. However I would not call it a neutral. Close but not quite. I just did a run the other day that was half corn and half oats fermented in KV6-116 under pitched on purpose. It has a very strong butterscotch smell and flavor. I took the hearts off between %80-%85 ran that way till the bottom glass started to fog up which said the tails were coming. Once I saw that I switched collection jars and a some of those I will throw in anyway. I like tails though. Sometimes I add enough it can get ever so slightly cloudy but to me the flavor I want is there.
To me the Flute is the swiss army knife of stills. You can do so much just in how you run it.
I have a hard time picking a cut over point on the pot still. With the flute I have no problems.
We are all different like different things and do well everything different. But the flute gives you options you have the plates if you want or need them and if you dont just dont reflux at all. If you prefer the potstill well now you have a pot still that can compress heads and tails to make your heart cut bigger.

This is a great way to look at it that I hadn't really considered. My main concern with turning reflux off and then back on during a run would be allowing the dephlegmator to get too hot. For one, the fittings going into mine are john guest made of some sort of plastic which could melt, and for two, allowing the condenser to get really hot and then subsequently introducing cold water to it seems like a bad idea.

For this reason I always have to keep at least some amount of water flowing through it which introduces some amount of reflux, however small. The only way I can see running my plated column as something close to a true pot still would be to either not attach the dephlegmator or not run any water through it at any point during the run.

Your still is only going to get as hot as the vapor going through it. I have brass fittings on my waterlines for condensor and defleg. I have viynl hose hooked up to those. I have never had any issues. It will only get slightly over 200 unless your distilling water. Most plastics can handle that and if it cant its a bad idea to have it on a still.
When I want something pot stilled I still compress heads and tails for more hearts. I have never had an issue doing it that way. When I turn the defleg back on I dont just open it wide open. I slowly open the valve only enough to push that tails back down. So its not getting a huge shock. However the stainless should be able to handle the 100 or so difference.

Edit to add the water in your lines will heat up closer to the defleg so if you turn your water on slowly your probably not even hitting it with a 20 degree difference and it will slowly bring the temp down if done right,

[bluefish_dist]

My working theory is that flavor is impurities. Want more flavor, you need more impurities or lower proof. I found that the fewest plates required to get the abv you want the better the flavor of you have time for it to age. If you want a clean spirit to drink right away then higher abv with more plates was better. I felt that matching the desired abv to the columns sweet spot was a better solution than detuning a taller column by running less reflux. Compared 3 and 4 plate runs at the same abv. 4 plate had less flavor.

As I have stated before I moved to 2 plates for aged product (off the still at 135 ish proof) and 3 plates (165 ish) for whites. The only thing I did a strip and finish was my vodka and that was due to not being able to fit my column on my big still due to roof height.

[NZChris]

My working theory is that flavor is impurities. Want more flavor, you need more impurities or lower proof.

I don't think of the VOCs as impurities. Like salt and pepper, too much and too little are both mistakes. Too little and your whiskey is vodka, too much and you are cursing yourself for taking too wide a cut.

[Twisted Brick]

My working theory is that flavor is impurities. Want more flavor, you need more impurities or lower proof. I found that the fewest plates required to get the abv you want the better the flavor of you have time for it to age. If you want a clean spirit to drink right away then higher abv with more plates was better. I felt that matching the desired abv to the columns sweet spot was a better solution than detuning a taller column by running less reflux. Compared 3 and 4 plate runs at the same abv. 4 plate had less flavor.

As I have stated before I moved to 2 plates for aged product (off the still at 135 ish proof) and 3 plates (165 ish) for whites. The only thing I did a strip and finish was my vodka and that was due to not being able to fit my column on my big still due to roof height.

Great explanation based on real world experience, Bluefish. Thanks. The distinction between a 'purer' spirit made with more plates and a more 'impure' spirit made with fewer plates is a straightforward way to think of it and consistent with the chart showing ABV associated with successive distillations. It also makes sense to bump the ABV slightly for spirits made to drink sooner than later and let the aging process do its magic on more 'impure' distillate.

In matching the desired final ABV to the column's sweet spot, were you able to dial this in by manipulating the ABV of the boiler charge?

[bluefish_dist]

In matching the desired final ABV to the column's sweet spot, were you able to dial this in by manipulating the ABV of the boiler charge?

I never tried to manipulate the abv of the boiler charge. Since I was one and done for most, there was not much to vary. I tried to be around 5-6% for whiskeys, 8-10% for rums, maybe 6-8% for whites. More a function of how much I was stressing the yeast than what % I put into the boiler.

[bluefish_dist]

My working theory is that flavor is impurities. Want more flavor, you need more impurities or lower proof.

I don't think of the VOCs as impurities. Like salt and pepper, too much and too little are both mistakes. Too little and your whiskey is vodka, too much and you are cursing yourself for taking too wide a cut.

Don’t disagree, but a batch (pot or column) still separates the components by molecular weight and time. We mostly take the middle to not get the really light and heavy components. Those are commonly accepted as not good, but distillation is only part of the process. Aging is a huge portion of the process. I found wider cuts could be used with more time in a barrel. Those bold flavors mellow and meld to add depth over time. Time also cleans up the spirit. The inverse of this was true as well, tight cuts and short times in the barrel also work. Too long with a tight cut and the oak overpowers the spirit flavors.

A common argument is a pot still makes better whiskey, this suggests some smearing is desired for good flavor. Smearing is simply poor separation of components. How is this fundamentally different than using fewer plates or using less reflux? Back to my theory that flavor is the components that come over that are not alcohol. Some good, some bad, the art is getting it right. While I never tried it, it’s theoretically possible that if you could separate each component to be pure and then mixed them back together in the right amounts it would taste the same as a pot stilled whiskey.

[NZChris]

Have a look at graphs of the components that come over during a distillation. Some start high and finish low, some start low and finish high. 'Undesirables' are only nasty above certain thresholds, below which they are the essential flavors that make your whiskey whiskey and your rum rum, etc..

Taste them in a cut jar and they are nasty because they are well above the threshold for your taste buds. Add some of a nasty jar to your hearts sample and it may improve the flavor.

Our job as stillers, is not to exclude the nasties, but to find the points in the distillation where we like the levels of the VOCs in our finished products. I suspect that this is more difficult with a plater because I often hear it said that the cut points are easier to find, but the opposite might be true. The same posters sometimes comment that their pot stills make a fuller flavored product, but I think that problem could be fixed by using smaller cut jar increments and tasting prospective blends rather than tasting individual jars

Because a plater compresses the heads and tails components, it would be easy toss a jar after guessing what it might do to the heart cut, rather than adding some to the heart cut sample to check if the guess was correct, which is what I do when choosing a cut from my pot still. Because of the compression, I would suggest using much smaller cut jars for a plater than a pot for the same volume of product.

[Hügelwilli]

... a batch (pot or column) still separates the components by molecular weight and time.

So at first come the heavy molecules and then the light ones? Or otherwise?

[bluefish_dist]

... a batch (pot or column) still separates the components by molecular weight and time.

So at first come the heavy molecules and then the light ones? Or otherwise?

Lightest first, then heavier. The way I see it, the lightest components go to the top of the still, once removed the next lightest (now the lightest of what’s left) come to the top. Thus components from light to heavy are separated and arranged by time taken off or jar number for collection. The better the separation, the more pure each jar is during the run. The least separation is a pot still, most is a 20+ column still. In all cases the components are aligned by time.
This differs from a continuous still where you can simply separate the components vertically, lightest at the top and heaviest at the bottom. Good example of this is a hydrocarbon cracker at a refinery.

[Hügelwilli]

But the lightest molecules are the ones of water. And water clearly doesn't accumulate at the top of a column.

And otherwise it doesn't make sense too:
If the heavy ones are at the top, acetic acid would come before the hearts. But it is clearly a tails substance.

[bluefish_dist]

But the lightest molecules are the ones of water. And water clearly doesn't accumulate at the top of a column.

And otherwise it doesn't make sense too:
If the heavy ones are at the top, acetic acid would come before the hearts. But it is clearly a tails substance.

Ok, maybe the better way to describe is we separate by boiling point, not molecular weight.

[Hügelwilli]

This would mean that Methanol is in the heads. And the Rum-pineapple-ester ethyl butyrate with boiling point 121°C would remain in the boiler. Same the banana-scent isoamyl acetate with 142°C boiling point.

[Sporacle]

This would mean that Methanol is in the heads. And the Rum-pineapple-ester ethyl butyrate with boiling point 121°C would remain in the boiler. Same the banana-scent isoamyl acetate with 142°C boiling point.

The way I understand it is that, as Bluefish puts it the separation occurs based on boiling point.
The difference is that the available space in our risers or columns combined with the turbulence created means that we will always get smearing to some degree.
Hence the massive amounts of plates needed to create close to azeo.

[Hügelwilli]

Nah, at first bluefish says it's the molecular weight, then he says it's the boiling point.
And now you say it's smearing what causes to evaporate some substances earlier and other substances later?

[Sporacle]

Nah, at first bluefish says it's the molecular weight, then he says it's the boiling point.
And now you say it's smearing what causes to evaporate some substances earlier and other substances later?

I was referring to Bluefishes boiling point post not the molecular weight post.
I am saying that the turbulence coupled with boiling points are very close for the fractions lead to smearing.
I'm not saying smearing causes some products to evaporate later or sooner, not sure how you got that from my post.

[bluefish_dist]

Nah, at first bluefish says it's the molecular weight, then he says it's the boiling point.
And now you say it's smearing what causes to evaporate some substances earlier and other substances later?

First, I am not a chemist, I am a mechanical engineer, so I never looked up molecular weights, but distillation separates fractions based on boiling point. In my mind that’s also weight, lighter/heavier. Alcohols like methanol and ethanol form a bond that isn’t broken in a normal still and they effectively boil together. This is why you can’t use a still to separate out methanol and the whole methanol in the foreshots is mostly a myth.

[Hügelwilli]

...but distillation separates fractions based on boiling point. In my mind that’s also weight, lighter/heavier...

No. This is 100% wrong.

The answer is the volatility of the substances. This is the reason why something comes over earlier or later and more or less concentrated. And the volatility has nothing to do with boiling point or molecular weight.

And because the volatility of low concentrated aromatic substances depends on the alcohol strength, it is not a fixed value unfortunately.

"Smearing" is a overrated term here. That you don't get a clear line between hearts and tails with a potstill has nothing to do with smearing, it is simply the physics, that the volatilities of the substances are not enough different, that you get a clear line with only one distillation stage. That's all.
And the thing with methanol is, that its volatility is similar to the one of ethanol. So it doesn't concentrate in heads or tails (unless you have a boiler abv close to aceo and high rectification).

[adamf]

After reading this thread so far, I found these resources helpful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatility_(chemistry)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatilit ... stillation

adamf

[Dougmatt]

After reading this thread so far, I found these resources helpful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatility_(chemistry)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatilit ... stillation

adamf

Looks like 2 links to the same page (just a different section of the page). Not sure if you meant to do that.

[adamf]

Same page but two different sections.
adamf

[LWTCS]

For added clarification from Duke.edu:

"Scientists commonly use the boiling point of a liquid as the measure of volatility. Volatile liquids have low boiling points. A liquid with a low boiling point will begin to boil faster than liquids with higher boiling points."

And Wikipedia:

"In that context, a lighter component means a component with a lower boiling point (or a higher vapor pressure) and a heavier component means a component with a higher boiling point (or a lower vapor pressure). Large-scale industrial distillation is rarely undertaken if the relative volatility is less than 1.05."
And:
"Volatility itself has no defined numerical value, but it is often described using vapor pressures or boiling points (for liquids). High vapor pressures indicate a high volatility, while high boiling points indicate low volatility."

Epa.gov :

"The higher the volatility (lower the boiling point), the more likely the compound will be emitted from a product or surface into the air. Very volatile organic compounds are so volatile that they are difficult to measure and are found almost entirely as gases in the air rather than in materials or on surfaces.Mar 5, 2024"