Shady's Sugar Shine Stall

[Boda Getta]

Mixed a 30 gal batch of Shady's down, followed the directions including oyster shells. Left town for 3 days, came back and checked. Nothing! i used Distillers Yeast I got online and thought it may be bad so I re-pitched with my go too Fleischmann's, checked it the next and still nothing. I didn't have a Ph tester so I picked up a Hanna HI98103, calibrated it and checked the Ph. It was at 8. Used Gypsum to bring it down to 3.2, then baking soda to bring it up to 4.7. I was hoping when I got the Ph in line the yeast would kick in for its still is stalled. I have some questions I need help on.

* Is the yeast I pitched twice dead? Should I re-pitch.
* I would like save this batch and not have to start over. I mostly do All Grains, but have done several sugar washes before (not Shady's but Wineo) and had good results. I am stumped how this batch went so wrong. If I get it working I'm sure because of all the mess ups it will be off favors; I will it in a pot still and just keep running it until it cleans up.

I would appreciate any assistance or suggestions.

Boda Getta

[OtisT]

Mixed a 30 gal batch of Shady's down, followed the directions including oyster shells. Left town for 3 days, came back and checked. Nothing! i used Distillers Yeast I got online and thought it may be bad so I re-pitched with my go too Fleischmann's, checked it the next and still nothing. I didn't have a Ph tester so I picked up a Hanna HI98103, calibrated it and checked the Ph. It was at 8. Used Gypsum to bring it down to 3.2, then baking soda to bring it up to 4.7. I was hoping when I got the Ph in line the yeast would kick in for its still is stalled. I have some questions I need help on.

* Is the yeast I pitched twice dead? Should I re-pitch.
* I would like save this batch and not have to start over. I mostly do All Grains, but have done several sugar washes before (not Shady's but Wineo) and had good results. I am stumped how this batch went so wrong. If I get it working I'm sure because of all the mess ups it will be off favors; I will it in a pot still and just keep running it until it cleans up.

I would appreciate any assistance or suggestions.

Boda Getta

Did you measure SG and what is your gravity now? Nothing to me means you are still sitting at the same SG. If you did not measure, taste the ferment. Is it sweet? If things went well, it could have finished in the three days you were gone. Of course, with a PH of 8, that is not likely.

What was/is the temp of your ferment?

[MooseMan]

As Otis says, do you have any start/current gravity?

If it's done nothing at all, I'd aerate the buggery out of it, get it up to 30 plus C and keep it there.
If you feel you need to re pitch I'd make a starter, and add a little dissolved DAP just before the starter goes in (At the same temp as the wash)
Keep us posted!

Edited for spelling! Duh

[buchrob]

Make 2 test starters @ 30 degrees: one using plain water and the second using some of your wash as the liquid. This will verify if your yeast is bad or if there's something in the wash that's doing it in.

Unfortunately, it' s been my experience that once a sugar wash goes bad, it's difficult to get back on track. 30 gallons is a lot to waste. If your test yeast is good, siphon off a gallon of wash and do some separate tests (temperature, pH, more nutrient etc, dilution to a lower gravity) a few cups at a time. It generally does not help to throw the kitchen sink at it and may just complicate matters.

And by all means rely on gravity measurements. If there was some error in your calculations, initial gravity might have been too high for the yeast to handle. It won't hurt things to dilute to a lower gravity

[NZChris]

PH 8 probably killed the yeast.

Crushed shell isn't as forgiving as whole shells, especially if you have used too much. Reading much of the advice on the forum, you might get the impression that crushed shell is failsafe, but it's not. You should always check the pH before making additions either way.

I use pH strips because they are accurate enough, don't need calibrating and the batteries never go flat.

[shadylane]

Need more information, such as temp and gravity. Something is wrong.
Even if the yeast used was dead, wild yeast would have kicked off the fermentation by now.

[Boda Getta]

Otist
Thanks for your reply. Both times I checked I just tasted the wash and it as sweet as first mixed. Tonight I will taste the wash and also check the SG. Will also do another yeast bomb and re-pitch. Another poster felt the Ph of 8 killed the yeast. I suspect the same but wonder if the dead yeast will act as a nutrient, if so, can you have too much nutrient. When first mixed I added boiled yeast and also some tomato paste. Would not be the end of the world to scrap the wash and start with a Wino recipe. The main issue is what to do with 30 gals of the sugar water, any that gets on the floor results in a sticky mess. I would just pump it out in the yard and hope it won't kill the grass.
Thanks to all for your input and I will keep y'all advised.

BG

[Boda Getta]

Shadylane
Thanks for your post, will check later tonight and advise on temp, Ph and SC Note my question on dead yeast: I suspect the same but wonder if the dead yeast will act as a nutrient, if so, can you have too much nutrient. When first mixed I added boiled yeast and also some tomato paste

BG

[NZChris]

You might be the only one here that has experienced the problem, so most replies will be guesses.

Washes that have gone over pH 8 are often quite stinky, ammonia I suspect. If you have another fermenter, you could rack off the clear to get rid of the dead yeast bed, then aerate, get it up to temperature and re-pitch.

[Yummyrum]

Be careful using pH meters ,especially if you haven't used one before.
They always need time to get an accurate reading . you should place it in sample , swirl it round for about 5-10 seconds and wait for the reading to stabilize . The older the meter , longer it takes to get a stable reading . 30-60 seconds is not uncommon for a 2-3 year old meter.

Always rinse them well in tap water before and after taking a measurement . Never use distilled water to clean them and never ever store them in Distilled water .

Incidentally , what is the pH of the water you use ?
I was tricked once . I grabbed a glass out of the dishwasher and couldn't understand why the reading of our water was so high . It was also pH 8 and its rainwater which is normally closer to 6.5.
Apparently our dishwasher leaves a layer of something very alkaline ( I'm guessing its Caustic Soda from the dishwasher tablets ) on our dishes . It was enough to throw my reading. A few rinses under the tap and the readings come right .

I agree with NZChris that pH paper is a whole lot easier , quicker and certainly accurate enough for our purposes .It just sucks for all Molasses washes though

Anyway. Yes aerate the crap out of it , get that temp up to 30 deg C and try and maintain it during fermentation .
My Shady's will always slow if its not kept warm .

[Boda Getta]

Report on Shady wash

Ph - 4.5 - now 5.0 (I just used more Baking Soda to raise to 5.00 The tester is new and just checked calibration. IMHO Ph reading correct

Temp - 79 F I'm in Alabama and this is seldom a problem.

SG - 1.10

Taste test - Most of the sweetness is gone and it tastes like my normal All Grain Bourbon mash when the mash is working properly and headed toward a SG of sub 1.00. But the SG does not bear that out, OTOH I have added a bunch of crap to the wash.

The "taste test" is encouraging, but SG is not (I did check the SG 2-3 times)

[shadylane]

SG - 1.10

I thought you said this was a sugar shine recipe.
How many pounds of sugar is in the 30 gallon fermenter?

[Boda Getta]

50 lbs sugar, I think your recipe called for 45 lbs/30 gals. I just used 2 x 25 lb bags. Double pitching yeast, All plus all that baking soda and gypsum I used dicking with trying to get the Ph right... could that account for the high SG?? As mentioned, I have been distilling All Grains for around 15 years and have done a few sugar washes. I usually use the neutral to infuse Gin, this batch is for a Citric infused vodka for my sister-in-law. The other sugar washes all went well. I don't have a clue how I F&*^%# this one so bad.

BG

[Chauncey]

Idk but won't baking soda cause blue low wines

[Boda Getta]

Shadylane
I just referred back to your recipe where you advise " 1.50# sugar/gal water is the upper limit. I ended up at 1.67 #/gal. Could this have caused the problem?

[shadylane]

Shadylane
I just referred back to your recipe where you advise " 1.50# sugar/gal water is the upper limit. I ended up at 1.67 #/gal. Could this have caused the problem?

That's close enough.
However, I suspect your gravity measurement of 1.100 incorrect.

[MooseMan]

Shadylane
I just referred back to your recipe where you advise " 1.50# sugar/gal water is the upper limit. I ended up at 1.67 #/gal. Could this have caused the problem?

My opinion is, the problem you've had is a combination of several variables that have added up and caused the crash/fail.

The environment you put the yeast into was just too toxic for them and still probably is.

Before it goes down the drain it's worth splitting it across 2 vessels and adding fresh water to get the gravity up around 1060 or below, and pitch a starter or even better do as butchrob has advised and test the diluted wash with starter first to see if it will take off.

You mentioned aging boiled yeast and TP, how much DAP did you add Boda?

[Boda Getta]

Mooseman
I didn't have any DAP (I now have on order), I used boiled yeast and tomato paste as nutrients.

BG

[NZChris]

I don't have a clue how I F&*^%# this one so bad.

I suspect that the pH was ok without any additions when you were ready to pitch the yeast. I trust my pH papers and don't use ingredients suggested in any T&T unless I'm confident that they are not going to give me pH problems. The hardness of the water you are using on the day can affect how it buffers the pH.

For SSS, I often don't add whole shells until around day two or three, after seeing the pH dropping enough to warrant adding them.

PS, I use baking soda for baking.

[MooseMan]

Mooseman
I didn't have any DAP (I now have on order), I used boiled yeast and tomato paste as nutrients.

BG

Aha!

All of the variables so far discussed, on top of a lack of yeast nutrient will be your answer.

What you've put together is quite a long way from what shady created and that's where it's all gone wrong.

I've messed around with nutrients a fair bit in this hobby already, and previously with wine/cider brewing, but DAP is so reliable that unless you are used to making sugar washes you just have to have it.

[NZChris]

Mooseman
I didn't have any DAP (I now have on order), I used boiled yeast and tomato paste as nutrients.

BG

Aha!

All of the variables so far discussed, on top of a lack of yeast nutrient will be your answer.

What you've put together is quite a long way from what shady created and that's where it's all gone wrong.

I've messed around with nutrients a fair bit in this hobby already, and previously with wine/cider brewing, but DAP is so reliable that unless you are used to making sugar washes you just have to have it.

Tomatoes contain phosphorus, so adding DAP would have been doubling up on it.

[Boda Getta]

I have never had DAP so have never used it (I do have some on order alone with potassium carbonate and citric acid). I have done 3-4 sugar washes and a butt load of All Grain mash's with very problem. I have mixed together "yeast bombs" several times. IMHO, the boiled yeast and tomato paste should have provided enough nutrients (I may be wrong) This morning I will go out and recheck the Ph (I'm at 5 now and that should work) and SG. I'm showing a SG of 1.10 after several checks. Shady doesn't think the 1.10 is correct and I think I agree. If the reading are the same as last night I will spilt the wash and re-pitch yeast and may add water to lower the SG My tap water has never been a problem. After pitching yeast I always stir the hell out of it with a drill and paint stirrer, them drop a aquarium bubbler in for 30 mins.

BG

[MooseMan]

Mooseman
I didn't have any DAP (I now have on order), I used boiled yeast and tomato paste as nutrients.

BG

Aha!

All of the variables so far discussed, on top of a lack of yeast nutrient will be your answer.

What you've put together is quite a long way from what shady created and that's where it's all gone wrong.

I've messed around with nutrients a fair bit in this hobby already, and previously with wine/cider brewing, but DAP is so reliable that unless you are used to making sugar washes you just have to have it.

Tomatoes contain phosphorus, so adding DAP would have been doubling up on it.

Yes it would be increasing the P levels, but not by huge levels we are talking mgs.
DAP has a fair bit more Phosphorus than Nitrogen, but is added for it's available Nitrogen provision to the yeast.

[MooseMan]

I have never had DAP so have never used it (I do have some on order alone with potassium carbonate and citric acid). I have done 3-4 sugar washes and a butt load of All Grain mash's with very problem. I have mixed together "yeast bombs" several times. IMHO, the boiled yeast and tomato paste should have provided enough nutrients (I may be wrong) This morning I will go out and recheck the Ph (I'm at 5 now and that should work) and SG. I'm showing a SG of 1.10 after several checks. Shady doesn't think the 1.10 is correct and I think I agree. If the reading are the same as last night I will spilt the wash and re-pitch yeast and may add water to lower the SG My tap water has never been a problem. After pitching yeast I always stir the hell out of it with a drill and paint stirrer, them drop a aquarium bubbler in for 30 mins.

BG

All grains don't need anything adding at all I agree BG, the grain provides everything the yeast need and more.

But a sugar wash gives nothing at all.
I split one in half to prove something as I've been messing with naturally available yeast nutrients.

Autolysed yeast, (Marmite) TP and blended stinging nettle (Decent micro nutrient content) in one.
DAP with Marmite in the other.
Both washes treated identically, gentle heaters under them, foil wrapped, Calcium chips added for buffer.
The one with DAP was hours faster to start, needed less heat energy added and finished nearly a day faster.

[shadylane]

I'm showing a SG of 1.10 after several checks. Shady doesn't think the 1.10 is correct and I think I agree.

Is the sg 1.010 or 1.100
Sounds like you're reading the hydrometer wrong.
I'm guessing 1.010 and the wash finished while you were away for 3 days.

[Boda Getta]

No I don't think so; when I got back in town I saw no signs of activity. The first thing I did was a "taste test", the wash was sweet tasting as day I dissolved the sugar. The last few days the sweet taste is gone. A hydrometer is not that hard to read and I been using one for years. When I checked the SG late last it was reading around1.08 and I did work on the wash this morning. I am giving it until in the morning to check it and I'm hoping to see some activity and the SG heading 1. 00. Most of All Grain mash start around 1.07ish and if I do a good good milling my grains I can end up at 0.99-0.98
Thank you for your continued input.

BG

[NZChris]

A nearly finished wash would be closer to 1.008, than "1.08".

I start my Sugar Shines at around 1.064.

[shadylane]

I didn't have any DAP (I now have on order), I used boiled yeast and tomato paste as nutrients.

How much boiled yeast and did you add any Magnesium sulfate?

viewtopic.php?t=70585

[Saltbush Bill]

In my book it's not SSS if it's got tomatoe paste in it......it's closer to Birdwatchers.

[Wildcats]

In my book it's not SSS if it's got tomatoe paste in it......it's closer to Birdwatchers.

+100.