Puzzled – need some guidance on wood processing

[Mr_Beer]

I believe that I have read the “Oaking and Ageing” thread at least twice. That said, I am still puzzled and looking for guidance.

Distilled and blended product in 1 quart wide mouth jars with 40% ABV.
I am fairly senior – my time horizon for product is in the 12-to-18-month timeframe. Any longer and it may not be important.

Pecan wood – ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces. Aged at least 4 years outside in woodpile
Cherry Wood – ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces. Aged at least 4 years outside in woodpile
Oak barrel staves -- ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces – staves purchased from esty and sawed.

In theory I have aged wood that meets criteria for further use. Am I correct in this statement?

Based on what I have read here and general notions of surface to volume these sizes seem appropriate for a 1 quart jar. Am I correct?

Put some pieces of each specie in a toaster oven at 300 degrees F for about 3 hours. Nothing seemed to change – same wood and no darkness. What was the toaster oven processing supposed to do?

There is not a lot of discussion regarding pecan or cherry in this thread. Should those pieces be added without any toasting activity? Opinions are solicited.

Should I just char the oak pieces instead of ‘toasting’ them?

Am I thinking about this issue in the correct way??

[Demy]

I personally do a wood roast in a small oven, I have modified and built a rotating drum. I stop when I like the smell. I don't do any mathematical calculations on quantities. To toast or not ... it depends on your tastes, personally I always perform a toast even if sometimes very light. Cherry wood gives a very strong aroma, it's great but I prefer it in combination with oak or chestnut. I don't know if that helps.

[elbono]

I'm starting to play with aging I'm following the
nuclear aging andTpee aging methods with oak from logs intended for firewood and getting not bad results. I'm sure longer aging will be better though.

I toast in my electric oven in the kitchen but you need a exhaust fan or you'll fill the house up with smoke. I toasted two batches one at 350F another at 400F both for 4 hours. Charred some of each with a propane torch. This makes four varieties to sample with each starting spirit. There's almost infinite combos to consider.

I also tried some cherry, it's not bad but not my cup of tea

I shoot for 20 sq in of side grain per pint jar. This is probably too much for longer aging. My pieces are "cut" with a hatchet so no exact measurements are possible.

With the nuclear aging you get something that tastes like whiskey in one or two days. The Tpee method takes about 3 months I've just started sampling it but it's similar flavor to the nuclear method.

All these give me stuff I like some better than others but all very acceptable.

What you like is the big question, I'm not willing to invest 18 months to get the first sample so I think these fast methods are best for me. Once I get drinking stock building faster than I drink it I'll pick one variety for longer aging

[elbono]

I'm nuking a couple of pints today so here's a picture of my toasted oak.

The vertical stick is untoasted, 350 toast is a bit darker and 400 toast is very dark, I plan to try 375 soon. I don't know where I got 4 hours, tpee uses 2 hours. I'm sure I saw 4 somewhere here. At three hours you should see some difference at least in aroma. I would try higher temps.

For the short aging times I'm doing I would use three (45 sq in of side grain) of your sticks per quart.

[OtisT]

I believe that I have read the “Oaking and Ageing” thread at least twice. That said, I am still puzzled and looking for guidance.

Distilled and blended product in 1 quart wide mouth jars with 40% ABV.
I am fairly senior – my time horizon for product is in the 12-to-18-month timeframe. Any longer and it may not be important.

Pecan wood – ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces. Aged at least 4 years outside in woodpile
Cherry Wood – ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces. Aged at least 4 years outside in woodpile
Oak barrel staves -- ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces – staves purchased from esty and sawed.

In theory I have aged wood that meets criteria for further use. Am I correct in this statement?

Based on what I have read here and general notions of surface to volume these sizes seem appropriate for a 1 quart jar. Am I correct?

Put some pieces of each specie in a toaster oven at 300 degrees F for about 3 hours. Nothing seemed to change – same wood and no darkness. What was the toaster oven processing supposed to do?

There is not a lot of discussion regarding pecan or cherry in this thread. Should those pieces be added without any toasting activity? Opinions are solicited.

Should I just char the oak pieces instead of ‘toasting’ them?

Am I thinking about this issue in the correct way??

Howdy Mr Beer. File this all under “just my opinion”.

Seasoning
I know Oak needs proper seasoning time, which I would assume your barrel parts have had. I have not found any info in my reading that say pecan or cherry need seasoning, but I don’t think it could hurt. My work to date with cherry has been using wood seasoned two years. I think with regard to seasoning of your wood, you are good to go. I have seasoned Pecan on hand, but have not used it yet (very soon though).


Size
I think the size of your oak stick for a mostly full quart is fine. I would personally cut that to 2/3 the length, but I know others very happy with a 5” long stick for that volume.

I think the cherry stick is way too big. My experience with cherry is “less is better”. I decide how much wood to use based on weight, not surface area. I prefer 1 gram of cherry for every 100 ml of product. The cherry I have is very strong and I start to notice it’s impact on spirits almost immediately.

I have not use pecan yet to have an opinion on how much to use, but I will know more in a few months. I’m getting ready this summer to start an aging test with both pecan and hazelnut.

Toast temp and time
I’ll start with cherry. I prefer my cherry wood aged spirits with raw (untoasted) cherry. Toasted is good too, and I was not a fan of charred cherry. (Save charring for Bourbon). I toast my cherry in the mid 300s, but have not landed on a preferred temp yet. Not sure how higher/lower temps impact tastes yet.

Oak toasting temps should be higher than 300F. There are some toasting charts online here that show different flavors produced at various temps. I prefer my oak in the 380 F range. 400F is used by many I read about but for me toasting at 400 or higher temps produce an acrid smell that I just don’t like and once that smell is present, it does not go away with time.

With regard to toasting time, 3 hours is too long for me. A 3/4” square piece of wood will toast all the way through in much less time. I prefer a bit of raw under the toast, and will pull and cut pieces in half at various times to know when my toast is less than half way through the stick. Keep a raw piece on hand to compare color with.

I recommend you use a standalone oven thermometer inside the oven to ensure your temps are what you think they are. In my testing done in different ovens, I find that the oven settings are off a bit from actual and this varied from oven to oven.

Charring the fruitwood
Just say No. I’m not a fan of charred fruitwood aging. Save the charring for oak/Bourbon.


If you are interested, I documented my experiments working with cherry, apple and plum in the fruitwood aging thread found in my signature below.

The Toasting link in my signature will show you come examples of wood color at various temps and times. Maybe helpful to you, maybe not. Check it out. There are some woods I tried that did not change color. Maple comes to mind. I did not see much color change with pecan either, but I’m new to pecan and I have yet to try some higher temps.

Best of luck to you. Happy aging.
Otis

[elbono]

I decide how much wood to use based on weight, not surface area

Interesting concept, it would make life so much simpler. Do you apply this to other wood species or just cherry?

Is this a benefit of your very pretty, uniform dimension sticks or applicable to someone like me that uses a hatchet?

Yeah, I know, try it and see. It's on the list now.

And for the OP,, don't let the complexity of alternatives make you delay experimentation. My very crude attempts so far have given me pleasing results. The worst that can happen is you pour it back in the boiler.

[OtisT]

I decide how much wood to use based on weight, not surface area

Interesting concept, it would make life so much simpler. Do you apply this to other wood species or just cherry?

Is this a benefit of your very pretty, uniform dimension sticks or applicable to someone like me that uses a hatchet?

Yeah, I know, try it and see. It's on the list now.

And for the OP,, don't let the complexity of alternatives make you delay experimentation. My very crude attempts so far have given me pleasing results. The worst that can happen is you pour it back in the boiler.

I do it all (well most) by weight now. It’s so much easier than measuring dimensions and doing math. All of the wood I use these days is either hand split or cut with tools but not measured for precise dimensions, so weight is almost a necessity for more consistent results. I found that working with surface area was a good way to roughly compare stick/jar aging to barrel aging, but once I got in the neighborhood for the proper amount of wood/volume (proper for me), I switched to measuring by weight to be more accurate. In jars, I don’t think surface area alone accurately reflects the need, at least not as well as weight does.

Some caveats…..

I store some used sticks wet, in sealed jars, for future use. With wet sticks I go by size because a wet stick does not weight the same as a dry one.

In recent years I typically just eyeball the size of the oak sticks I use. Been doing this long enough that eyeballing a proper sized oak stick works just fine for me. The measuring was all very valuable as I tried to determine what works for me.

FYI, re-distilling oak aged spirits does not clean them up well. The times I have done this the color does come through clear again but the oak smell/taste will carry over, including the nasty acrid/creosol smells and bitter tannins. The smell of a scorch also comes across in a distillation.

[Deplorable]

I believe that I have read the “Oaking and Ageing” thread at least twice. That said, I am still puzzled and looking for guidance.

Distilled and blended product in 1 quart wide mouth jars with 40% ABV.
I am fairly senior – my time horizon for product is in the 12-to-18-month timeframe. Any longer and it may not be important.

Pecan wood – ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces. Aged at least 4 years outside in woodpile
Cherry Wood – ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces. Aged at least 4 years outside in woodpile
Oak barrel staves -- ¾” x ¾” x 5” pieces – staves purchased from esty and sawed.

In theory I have aged wood that meets criteria for further use. Am I correct in this statement?

Based on what I have read here and general notions of surface to volume these sizes seem appropriate for a 1 quart jar. Am I correct?

Put some pieces of each specie in a toaster oven at 300 degrees F for about 3 hours. Nothing seemed to change – same wood and no darkness. What was the toaster oven processing supposed to do?

There is not a lot of discussion regarding pecan or cherry in this thread. Should those pieces be added without any toasting activity? Opinions are solicited.

Should I just char the oak pieces instead of ‘toasting’ them?

Am I thinking about this issue in the correct way??

The part in red. Im a little surprised nobody else picked up on this. Or maybe they did and I glossed over it. Thats pretty weak for oaking. bump your oaking proof up to 55% to 60% and you get better results. All my wood is cut the same size (roughly) I find .7 inches square fits nicely through the neck of a 1 gallon jug. I use 1 stick per quart jar, or 3 in a gallon jug since I only fill them 3/4 full. As mentioned, cherry adds character fast, so I usually dont leave it it long, but I do have a half gallon of oak aged corn whiskey that is still on a cherry stick and has been for a few months, just to see what happens over a long period of time.

[shadylane]

Put some pieces of each specie in a toaster oven at 300 degrees F for about 3 hours. Nothing seemed to change – same wood and no darkness. What was the toaster oven processing supposed to do?

I use an old toaster oven with the temp set to max.
The time varies, but somewhere between smelling like vanilla and catching on fire.

[Saltbush Bill]

use an old toaster oven with the temp set to max.
The time varies, but somewhere between smelling like vanilla and catching on fire.

Pretty much the method I've used over the years......seems to work well.
In recently years ive been lazy and bought proper pre toasted Domino's from Still Dragon......I still char my own, when needed.

[NZChris]

I'm puzzled. I don't know where you got the idea that aging on wood at 40% was a good idea. I doubt it would have been from old hands around here.

If you are getting old and need to speed things up, have a read here; viewtopic.php?t=55301

[buchrob]

At 40%, will be slow... which may be a good thing. Best to test a small quantity first, sampling at one week intervals. It is possible to overdo it.

Tried pecan once... was very disappointed with the results. Tasted bitter more than anything else.

[shadylane]

I am fairly senior – my time horizon for product is in the 12-to-18-month timeframe. Any longer and it may not be important.

That maybe your time horizon.
But if Ya kick the bucket before drinking everything.
Ya don't want folks talking bad about what you made.

[shadylane]

Best to test a small quantity first, sampling at one week intervals. It is possible to overdo it.

Tried pecan once... was very disappointed with the results. Tasted bitter more than anything else.

I agree.

[Mr_Beer]

WOW!!!

Great answers from all who commented – I definitely appreciate the comments.

The 40% ABV was the result of blending recommendation in this forum – blend to the strength you like to drink. I did not recognize that the ageing process required stronger distillate to be effective with enhanced ageing techniques. Great point and thanks to “Deplorable” for pointing out that issue. That can be fixed in the future certainly.

Thanks to those who commented on pecan – I certainly will take under advisement and possibly return those sticks to BBQ and smoking use. My experience is that pecan is good for cold smoking fish.

Thanks to “shadylane” and “Saltbush Bill” for their view of temperature and toaster oven. Looks like I was being too careful/restrained in the temperature setting. Will adjust that.

Thank OtisT for the comments on weight versus size and reference to his prior work.

Thanks to “NZChris” for the reference to some process for 6 day ageing. The thread was interesting/skeptical. My assumption is that most forum members have some form of engineering background/experience and their ability to research work product in this area seems very high. Eight years have passed and no major breakthroughs have been published or are in use. Licensing a process, especially in the international arena, would be almost impossible to enforce. I have no doubt that a process will be possible in 20 years – possibly sooner.