I don't know that product but you should rely on the temperatures of use... if for example it acts at temperatures of 45-50 degrees Celsius you certainly can't use it at high temperatures...
Haven’t used viscoseb but have used glucabuster which is a beta glucanase. That one works at lower temps, I usually add it just before I add my wheat and/or rye.
Mr_Beer wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 2:06 pm
What I am puzzled about is when to use the ViscoSEB L.
Along with the high and low temp enzymes? An example might be a corn based rye added bourbon.
As a replacement for the Low Temp Enzyme
As a stand alone substitute for both the high and low temp enzymes?
A beta-glucanase is not a substitute for alpha or beta amalyse. It's used specifically to break down beta-glucan starch chains which cause the "thick as snot" viscosities in rye and oat mashes (and to a lesser degree wheat and barley).
________________
I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
First - high temp to break up long chains.
Ie. Turn starch into dextrine
When mash cools to beta temp range - add it
It turns dextrins into fermentable dextrose
My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D
Life has gotten interesting!
i've used sebflo gl, the predecessor to visco seb.
tried it cold on the way up, mash in on the way down and at 100* on the way down to pitch temp. the last worked the best but it still only mitigated the rye slime, did not cure it. maybe 10% thinner? maybe a bit more.
I am not familiar with the organic chemistry issues associated with starches and beta-glucans properties/issues or the modern methods of dealing with them on a technical basis.
That said, I thought I would ask the HomeDistiller experts about use of ViscoSEB L – Beta-Glucanase Enzyme.
“greggen” proposed a fairly definitive answer – and he has a nine year history with HomeDistiller.
“EricTheRed” provided a similar answer
“HDNB” provided an answer with some sense of experience – and he has a nine year history with HomeDistiller.
So, on my next rye mash I will try my ‘super dose’ approach (200% of the high and low temp enzymes at the appropriate temps) along with the ViscoSEB L addition at the lower temps desired.
My reading does not indicate that, aside from cost, there is much downside to using too much of any of these enzymes.
After a month or so I will post results of my approach.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. I really appreciate your taking the time.
Last edited by Mr_Beer on Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
HDNB's mention of "rye slime" is the typical example of a use for beta-glucanase enzyme. Beta glucans are "gummy" compounds in grains that make stuff sticky/slimy. Wheat has some of this to a lesser degree, malted barley not as much but it's still there. Generally, a 20 minute rest at somewhere in the range of 104-110F for malted grains which have beta-glucanase already is reasonalbe for breaking down the rye slime. It won't be perfect but it makes it manageable. With unmalted grains, you have to add the enzyme.
More time or enzymes doesn't hurt, but only helps until a reaction is complete or the enzymes are denatured. Beta-glucanase is typically denatured quickly above 120F.
i would like to expand on eric's answer, i assume he's referring to a high temp a-amylase - you don't just need high temps to break up long chains as such.
long chains can be broken up at any temp, depends on the method, natural enzymes, thermostable enzymes etc etc.
the world of enzymes gets interesting when you delve into the array of products available.
sometimes it's hard to get any data/specs, like the ideal PH and temp range.
viscoseb L seems like it's multi-enzyme product, specifically for betaglucans & 'other' stuff.
the viscosity enzymes i'm looking at buying in Oz, target the betaglucans, but also contain A-amylase and work in conjunction, by adding separate b-amylase.
i can't tell if viscoseb L contains a-amylase or not.
there's no easy answer to enzyme use, you will have to consider the grain bill, it's percentage of potential betaglucans to deal with, the gel temps of your grain, the temp & PH range of the enzymes, whether your grain is malted/unmalted etc
howie wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 7:49 pm
i would like to expand on eric's answer, i assume he's referring to a high temp a-amylase - you don't just need high temps to break up long chains as such.
Indeed they are liquid HT enzymes - 80 - 85°C - and liquid beta enzymes - 50 - 55°C
the first converts to dextrins, the second converts to dextrose
So with my process, i boil the water, add 60% of my grain bill, while mixing with paint stick. Temp comes dow to 83° pretty quickly - add HT enzumes 80 to 85°C which makes it very soupy very quickly, add balance of grains while sirring - then cover and let sit for an hour or so.
Open it, let temp drop to 50 - 55°C - add the beta enzymes cover and let sit for an hour.
there are so many enzymes out there - each with their own process to go with it. Which means you need to get reliable information on your choice of enzyme and how it will integrate with your process.
ta
My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D
Life has gotten interesting!
howie wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 7:49 pm
i would like to expand on eric's answer, i assume he's referring to a high temp a-amylase - you don't just need high temps to break up long chains as such.
Indeed they are liquid HT enzymes - 80 - 85°C - and liquid beta enzymes - 50 - 55°C
the first converts to dextrins, the second converts to dextrose
So with my process, i boil the water, add 60% of my grain bill, while mixing with paint stick. Temp comes dow to 83° pretty quickly - add HT enzumes 80 to 85°C which makes it very soupy very quickly, add balance of grains while sirring - then cover and let sit for an hour or so.
Open it, let temp drop to 50 - 55°C - add the beta enzymes cover and let sit for an hour.
there are so many enzymes out there - each with their own process to go with it. Which means you need to get reliable information on your choice of enzyme and how it will integrate with your process.
ta
similar methods for me eric.
i have been delving into unmalted wheat and rye and want to bypass the glucan rest (which doesn't always work for me)
the enzymes over here i use are the brand name Benzyme, which are re-branded from Novozymes (from Denmark i believe)
loads of info is available for their enzymes with ideal PH/activity graphs & ideal temp/activity graphs.
harold01 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:35 am
Eric and Howie
newbie here, do you grind your grains if so, how fine or are they whole
Harold
For us here in South Africa for corn it is cheaper to just use a fine ground corn meal. It is a staple for the majority of the population. Cheaper than animal grade!
For things like oatmeal, i use the breakfast jungle oats. Toasted quite hard. The ground to a fine grind.
For rye and wheat i use flour. Make paste with cold water to save your sanity. Only add the paste to your mash when everything else added.
Ta
My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D
Life has gotten interesting!
