getting the most taste

[cyrusvalkonen]

So I improvised a basic pot still, and the end result tasted like pure rubbing alcohol basically. You could taste a hint of fusel alcohol, but really whether or not this was pure ethanol mixed with water from a pharmacy or not, it would be almost impossible to tell the difference.

I then infused this alcohol with the rowan berries I also made the wash with, and after 2 days it already had a nice taste to it. Pretty much more like I imagined the distillate to taste like.

The issue I take is, that I could have basically taken vodka from the supermarket, and infuse this to yield the same result. Making my distillation superflous.

I am interested in getting a more unique taste out of the distillation, and what apparatus or process would maximize towards that goal. But without adding anything else during or after the process.

I have seen people done taste tests who were talking about lots of nuances, like different mouth feel, hints of grain, etc. with stills that should yield even cleaner results than my pot still. It kind of makes the impression of false advertizement to me in hindsight. I drank from a plastic cup, and that alone produced taste alterations about 20x stronger than whatever I got from the distillate. Just to put things into perspective.

[Salt Must Flow]

I understand you have a pot still. What did you ferment? Was it a sugar wash? If you want a neutral product then that would be best done using a reflux column though I have read that people do a very slow spirit run with a pot still to try and get as close to a neutral as they can. A reflux column makes as odorless and tasteless product possible. Sugar washes are easy and makes a good neutral. Doing all grain mashes and running them through a reflux column can also produce a different than sugar washes do and imparts a flavor that sugar washes don't. Oats provides that "mouth feel".

A pot still is more for making flavored products like bourbon, whisky, rum, etc... The flavor comes from the grains in the mash (or molasses in the case of rum) and a pot still allows for a lot of that flavor to carry over into the product.

[cyrusvalkonen]

I did ferment a mix of sugar, rowanberries and bananas to make wine. It tastes quite strong on its own. So the assumption was that it would carry over somewhat into the distillate. Or is it only true, that only certain types of flavor carry over, such as provided by oats?

My goal is to produce a distillate that has a lot of flavor and is the most unique.

[Salt Must Flow]

The more sugar you add, the more it dilutes flavor of the end product.

Just for fun, I once fermented 26 cans of grape concentrate, no added sugar or corn syrup. I stripped it then did spirit run through my pot still. It didn't taste anything like grape. It had that classic brandy flavor. I let it age with some oak and I think it turned out pretty good. If you ferment a bunch of peaches, it will not come out of the still tasting like peaches.

Others will have more input about what kind of 'flavor' you can expect with different ingredients. I mostly make neutrals. I believe people put stuff inside their thumper to help with flavor and materials do not scorch inside of a thumper like it can inside of a boiler. I just have no experience to be able to say what 'flavor' would carry over like if you put a bunch of berries in there.

Are you basically asking what unique flavored products can be made or what materials carry over unique flavors? Do you know what you're interested in making or just asking for examples of what can be made? Corn carries over a distinctive flavor. There's an enormous variety of different Malts. Rye certainly carries over a distinct flavor. Gins have an enormous variety of flavors due to all the different ingredients and proportions used. Fruits produce Brandy which is a distinctive flavor. Rum is a huge category of spirits. Some materials contain oils and those oils certainly carry over through a pot still.

[NZChris]

You didn't say what you did, but I'm guessing that you have been following poor advice on how to run a pot still.

[JustinNZ]

Hey man. It’s pretty disappointing when you have a really tasty wine or (hard) cider or fermented plum wash and then when you distil it (probably twice) you get something out that’s ‘subtle’ at best. I imagine hundreds if not thousands of members have been there with brandies. Sometimes I get close to what I’m after, but other times it’s back to the drawing board.

One think I’ve learnt is fruit should be super ripe and thus allow you to avoid sugar if possible. A really intense wIne could be the difference. I’m about to try apples (again) and I’ve let them (99c per kg) ripen for two months now just to see if it helps. I made two plum brandies last year- one from fruit that fell and one from fruit picked. The first one was a keeper the other has been recycled.

So I think generally speaking the more flavour that goes into the still the more flavour comes out. Saying that, a lot of seemingly random shit happens too with the cuts. All grains seem to always be quite tasty, mind you.

Good luck out there.

[Saltbush Bill]

I don't see any mention of making cuts?
Did you make any?

[cyrusvalkonen]

Thanks for the insights.

I was actually wondering if there is a method or setup that would yield even more flavor than a pot still. Like maybe a half-baked distillation?

Of course I made cuts. The tails just tasted more watery, not actually worse or more flavorful. It was just dropping in alcohol concentration, like you would expect it from charts. It all went pretty textbook-ish. I started collecting hearts shortly after it suddenly swapped to a very strong ethanol odor. It would taste all the same once it swapped over.

Hm, about overripe vs ripe fruit that sounds odd and interesting.

Rowanberries taste very very strong and they will actually hinder fermentation due to extreme amounts of sorbic acid. Which is why you have to use sugar and can't use that many of them. I fermented with banana to buffer pH a bit. Works quite well. Apples mix better with the rowan taste, but ferment less well than bananas and also produce more methanol.

The wine from the berries tastes "interesting", but arguably not that good, since rowan doesn't really taste good to begin with. Its a very aquired taste to be sure. However if you just infuse them, then it really tastes quite nice. It is also noteworthy that the wine produces much less hangover, ostensibly due to high vitamin C content.

I was just experimenting with rowanberry wine, that's why I got the idea to distilled them. I wasn't initially really interested in distillation itself.

If I were to pick this up as a hobby, I would want to invest into equipment that yields something more unique than just alcohol with water.

[NZChris]

The best still for flavor is a pot still. You still haven't said anything that suggests you know how to distill with one. You are assuming that we all know what you did, but we don't, so we have to guess. My guess is that you didn't strip then spirit run, hence your crappy result.

[cyrusvalkonen]

NZChris, please read the thread before responding.

Here is a short summary of what was said: I distilled with a pot still for the first time, and I am asking about means to get a more flavorful distillate (without adding flavor during or after the process), because my result didn't have any flavor at all. Double-distilling like you suggested would only worsen the very problem. I don't understand why you want to question what I did, when you didn't even make the effort to read about it in the first place.

[Wildcats]

Gonna be hard to get help that way sir.

[NZChris]

Double-distilling like you suggested would only worsen the very problem.

Thanks for the 'heads up', I didn't know I had been doing it the wrong way all these years.

[jonnys_spirit]

How about starting with what you want to make for end product and then working backwards towards a specific recipe and process instead of shooting in the dark?

Cheers,
J

[6 Row Joe]

Duplicate thread. May be the staff can combine the two.

[MooseMan]

Rowanberries taste very very strong and they will actually hinder fermentation due to extreme amounts of sorbic acid. Which is why you have to use sugar and can't use that many of them. I fermented with banana to buffer pH a bit. Works quite well. Apples mix better with the rowan taste, but ferment less well than bananas and also produce more methanol.

The wine from the berries tastes "interesting", but arguably not that good, since rowan doesn't really taste good to begin with. Its a very aquired taste to be sure. However if you just infuse them, then it really tastes quite nice. It is also noteworthy that the wine produces much less hangover, ostensibly due to high vitamin C content.

I was just experimenting with rowanberry wine, that's why I got the idea to distilled them.

Taking this well off topic but I think it's warranted, are you prepping the berries before you use them?

When raw, Rowan berries contain decent amounts of parascorbic acid.

If your not careful man, you're gonna bugger up your kidneys.

[kennstminet]

When raw, Rowan berries contain decent amounts of parascorbic acid.

If your not careful man, you're gonna bugger up your kidneys.

I doubt that parasorbic acid will distill over. It degrades during cooking.
There is only an issue when large mounts of raw fruits are eaten.
Where I live, Rowan berries are called Vogelbeere and Vogelbeerschnaps is a rare specialty and expensive.
No sugar is added to the mash and this causes a very low alcohol yield. That explains the high price.

[MooseMan]

When raw, Rowan berries contain decent amounts of parascorbic acid.

If your not careful man, you're gonna bugger up your kidneys.

I doubt that parasorbic acid will distill over. It degrades during cooking.
There is only an issue when large mounts of raw fruits are eaten.
Where I live, Rowan berries are called Vogelbeere and Vogelbeerschnaps is a rare specialty and expensive.
No sugar is added to the mash and this causes a very low alcohol yield. That explains the high price.

Totally correct Ken, it converts to a safe acid quite readily on being heated.
But the OP had been making and drinking Rowan wine so I wanted to make him aware.

[Saltbush Bill]

and the end result tasted like pure rubbing alcohol basically.

Of course I made cuts.

Ok , so why did it taste like rubbing alcohol ? Maybe you need to re-access what you think are good cuts.
It might also help to take Chris's advice by stripping your wash before doing the spirit run.

[Swedish Pride]

Remember that time when you tried to learn a new skill and got it right first time around.... nah me neither.

Listen to the old heads here.
A potty is the right tool, single run isn't.
Stripp down to 0 if you want all possible flavour, then do a sprit run.

It won't taste of rubbing alcohol if you do cuts right( read about cuts here, don't assume you know how and don't rely on how commercial distillers info either)
And you should get plenty flavour.

If you want ever more flavour, infuse what you kept from the spirit run with Rowan berries and distill again, similar to gin( read up on Odin's gin)

[Yummyrum]

and the end result tasted like pure rubbing alcohol basically.

Of course I made cuts.

Ok , so why did it taste like rubbing alcohol ? Maybe you need to re-access what you think are good cuts.
It might also help to take Chris's advice by stripping your wash before doing the spirit run.

These are the key points that get me too .

Rubbing alcohol .

Now to me , that means Isopropyl . ….. now that is something you really won’t get in any recognisable amount from a Pot still .

But apparently Rubbing Alcohol can mean Ethanol at about 70% ABV -…… and that I think may be your problem .
I think your untrained senses are just picking up on the high percentage alcohol and relating that to “clean” ethanol .

I can assure you that nothing that comes off a Pot still is clean and flavourless .
Anytime you taste anything , you need to dilute it down to about 30-35%ABV . Otherwise it fries your taste buds leaving you unable to detect any actual flavours present .

Which brings me to this .
viewtopic.php?t=68702

Either that , or you have Covid and your sense of taste is gone .