Riesling Brandy project

[Deplorable]

My friends at the local winery let me piggyback on a purchase they're making of some 350+ gallons for the purpose of making a neutral for fortifying their port, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to try making a different spirit since its's a base wine low in sulfites.
(No, I'm not distilling all of that for them. A large commercial distillery does the heavy lifting.)
I've yet to distill any wine but decided to purchase 30 gallons of Riesling base wine at US$5 a gallon for the sole purpose of making Brandy.
I'll be flying pretty blind, but my intention is to make two 12 gallon stripping runs, then add the remaining wine to the resulting low wines for a spirit run. The same Protocall I use for my whiskey.
Cuts will be a new experience for me on a grape distillate, so I have some homework to do there.
I intend to age it in glass on Hungarian oak wine staves, or maybe I'll get a Badmo Legacy Barrel from Christopher and do it proper.
Since I've never been much of a brandy drinker, this will surely age for a very long time.

Anyone who can advise me on what to look for where in the cut jars or advice on wood preparation, I'm all ears as I start doing my homework. I expect to pick up the wine in the next several days. In the meantime, I'm off to do some reading.

[Bradster68]

My friends at the local winery let me piggyback on a purchase they're making of some 350+ gallons for the purpose of making a neutral for fortifying their port, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to try making a different spirit since its's a base wine low in sulfites.
(No, I'm not distilling all of that for them. A large commercial distillery does the heavy lifting.)
I've yet to distill any wine but decided to purchase 30 gallons of Riesling base wine at US$5 a gallon for the sole purpose of making Brandy.
I'll be flying pretty blind, but my intention is to make two 12 gallon stripping runs, then add the remaining wine to the resulting low wines for a spirit run. The same Protocall I use for my whiskey.
Cuts will be a new experience for me on a grape distillate, so I have some homework to do there.
I intend to age it in glass on Hungarian oak wine staves, or maybe I'll get a Badmo Legacy Barrel from Christopher and do it proper.
Since I've never been much of a brandy drinker, this will surely age for a very long time.

Anyone who can advise me on what to look for where in the cut jars or advice on wood preparation, I'm all ears as I start doing my homework. I expect to pick up the wine in the next several days. In the meantime, I'm off to do some reading.

That'll be a great sip I'm sure. I have a hard time explaining or describing taste and smells for making cuts. Thats where my better half assists me.Obviously its your tongue and nose that'll decide what you keep. To me too much tails will create a chalky taste. Lots of smells in the heads and flavor so I do add some.
I do save a narrow heart cut for aging white.
It's interesting white.
As far as oak iv tried lots of different styles.
IMO charred will overpower the brandy,but some of my friends have said it gives a whiskey taste when heavily charred. I do a light toast(usually) and I don't add as much as I would for my other spirits. I'm scared of overpowering the fruity notes.
Not to brag but I haven't made a bad batch yet. Except when I was new and saving too much heads.
Wish I could give ya more but that's all I got.

Also I only do red grape wine kits

[Saltbush Bill]

I've fermented and distilled grapes only once at this stage ....some I've oaked .
I'll suggest one thing, keep a jar from the heart of the hearts, .....keep it white and bottle it, put a slug in your coffee when life or the weather is bleak, or for some other reason the time seems right.
Its just another version of "Distillers Privilege".

[tommysb]

My friends at the local winery let me piggyback on a purchase they're making of some 350+ gallons for the purpose of making a neutral for fortifying their port, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to try making a different spirit since its's a base wine low in sulfites.

I won't call you out on the fact that it's not Port unless it's made in Porto or the Douro valley..

I did want to point out that the alcohol they (Port Wine Makers) fortify with is actually quite far from Neutral. Probably around 70% and with a lot of 'character'. So if you're really shooting for a Port, don't make your fortifying spirit too clean!

[Deplorable]

My friends at the local winery let me piggyback on a purchase they're making of some 350+ gallons for the purpose of making a neutral for fortifying their port, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to try making a different spirit since its's a base wine low in sulfites.

I won't call you out on the fact that it's not Port unless it's made in Porto or the Douro valley..

I did want to point out that the alcohol they (Port Wine Makers) fortify with is actually quite far from Neutral. Probably around 70% and with a lot of 'character'. So if you're really shooting for a Port, don't make your fortifying spirit too clean!

I'm aware if the EUPDO rules around port, but I'm not in the business of telling winery owners how to make their wine. I rarely drink Port, and only as an aperitif. I damned sure don't make it.

[zach]

I think you are on the right track. If you product is headed for a badmo, I would be less concerned about tight heads cut. I find cuts with grapes not much different from all grain.

I made a wine brandy in 2021 which was mix of three wines from 2020 with wide cuts. I let it age a year in a corny with oak sticks in a hot garage with a loose lid at 70%. I diluted and bottle at 43% in 2022 and it's very nice.

The brandy I made in 2022, I went a little too far into the tails, and hoped that a year on wood would help. It didn't. I will likely distill it again.

Much of the brandy I make I strip the wet pomace, keeping the free run wine to age and bottle. So it's not grappa and it's not a wine brandy, but somewhere in the middle, I call it grape brandy.

I just bottled my 2023 grape brandy all white made from a mix of zin and chardonnay. On the spirit run (8 gallons at 40%) I shut down at 45% output and dropped the first pint and the last two quarts into feints. I kept 3 gallons at 80% and bottled at 43%. I don't air it out as I want to keep as much of the aromatic flavors as I can when drinking white. I start collecting in small jars for heads and again as soon as there is a hint of tails coming through. You might keep some hearts from the spirit run white, just because it's something you can get easily at a store and it may have some complex flavors that get masked by wood.

[contrahead]

I see no reason why Riesling grapes would not make an amazing Cognac like brandy. The problem though, is in the aging.

I avoid modern commercial brandies and cognacs because they (the ones I can afford at least) are no good. They are too harsh; (including the ones I've made). It takes a long, long while to age the kinks out of a brandy.

Other notes:

-Some of the very first distillates were brandy. The etymology of the word comes from brandy-wine (1620s) from Dutch brandewijn "burnt wine,"
-From the first encyclopedia (almost 300 years old now – the Cyclopaedia) is an early description of the process of distilling brandy. I get the distinct impression that many spirits called “brandy”in the past – were in fact more like strongly fortified wines, than they were purely distilled spirits.
<see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandy>

There is also a missing link in the current, apparent understanding of prestigious brandies. For example, some Greeks insist that Napoleon (born in Corsica) gained his first appreciation for brandy (which was Greek brandy) while in the Mediterranean during the French campaign in Egypt and Syria. He captured Malta and the Greek island of Crete, for instance. It was afterwards, back on the mainland that his appetite encouraged the improvement of what were to become known as 'Napoleon brandies'.

.
Back in the 1980's my mother returned from one of her trips to Europe, with a ceramic bottle (as imaged above) of Metaxa brandy as a present, for me. The bottle was a special vintage, one aged in a barrel for 40 years – according to the writing on the bottle. The Greek store owner where she purchased it said that the bottle had been setting in the corner of his shop for at least 20 years – collecting dust.
Once opened (for a special occasion) it tasted far better – and nothing like that V.S.O.P. or Courvoisier horseshit.
My input; save some of the Riesling and dilute the pure spirit with it. Then age for 40 years.

[NormandieStill]

Ah. Metaxa. My parents met in Cyprus where they had quickly learned that Metaxa routinely (in most lcoal shops) comes in 5-star and 7-star varieties. While the 7-star bottles are perfectly drinkable, especially while playing backgammon against the locals, 5-star is good for stripping paint and cleaning car parts. Under no circumstances should you actually pour it into a glass. In some circumstances it seemed to be capable of giving you the hangover before you'd even drunk the first sip!

[jonnys_spirit]

I enjoy sipping straight branda and grappa. I think they’re also good as a base spirit for rakki and sambuca type macerations as well as a grand marnier liqueur if you enjoy that kind of thing in your margarita’s.

If you’re using a riesling you might consider keeping a couple bottles to proof down some of the brandy if needed.

Cheers!
-j

[Deplorable]

I see no reason why Riesling grapes would not make an amazing Cognac like brandy. The problem though, is in the aging.

I avoid modern commercial brandies and cognacs because they (the ones I can afford at least) are no good. They are too harsh; (including the ones I've made). It takes a long, long while to age the kinks out of a brandy.

Other notes:

-Some of the very first distillates were brandy. The etymology of the word comes from brandy-wine (1620s) from Dutch brandewijn "burnt wine,"
-From the first encyclopedia (almost 300 years old now – the Cyclopaedia) is an early description of the process of distilling brandy. I get the distinct impression that many spirits called “brandy”in the past – were in fact more like strongly fortified wines, than they were purely distilled spirits.
<see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandy>

METAXA_2.jpg

There is also a missing link in the current, apparent understanding of prestigious brandies. For example, some Greeks insist that Napoleon (born in Corsica) gained his first appreciation for brandy (which was Greek brandy) while in the Mediterranean during the French campaign in Egypt and Syria. He captured Malta and the Greek island of Crete, for instance. It was afterwards, back on the mainland that his appetite encouraged the improvement of what were to become known as 'Napoleon brandies'.

.
Back in the 1980's my mother returned from one of her trips to Europe, with a ceramic bottle (as imaged above) of Metaxa brandy as a present, for me. The bottle was a special vintage, one aged in a barrel for 40 years – according to the writing on the bottle. The Greek store owner where she purchased it said that the bottle had been setting in the corner of his shop for at least 20 years – collecting dust.
Once opened (for a special occasion) it tasted far better – and nothing like that V.S.O.P. or Courvoisier horseshit.
My input; save some of the Riesling and dilute the pure spirit with it. Then age for 40 years.

40 years is a long stretch, to be sure. I'd like to drink at least a little of it, but I did have intentions of aging at the very least 3+ years. As a matter of fact, I almost pulled the trigger on a XFW Badmo Barrel last night, but I think I'm going to wait and see how much I end up keeping after cuts. I suspect I'll be in the neighborhood of 2.75 gallons of keep. And yes, my intention was any dilution required would be with a good Riesling to boost flavor.

[zach]

Metaxa is not brandy. It's a liquor made with brandy then sweetened with muscat wine with a lot of residual sugar.

Greek / Cretan brandy is tsipouro or raki and is nothing like cognac as it is white, but very good. My Cretan friend tells me the secret to his brandy is to keep the seeds out the still.

[Deplorable]

My 30 gallons of wine was delivered last night, and much to my surprise, Salvador purchased red wine, not the Riesling we'd discussed.
So, this brandy will be 85/15 cab sav and merlot, not Reisling. But the wine is from 2018 harvest in one of my favorite AVAs in Washington State, Rattlesnake Hills. The wine has bold flavors so this should be a promising Brandy.

[hawkwing]

Why are they selling it so cheap? Was it not good wine?

[Demy]

I find the cuts made on a wine intuitive...the heads smell a lot like solvent and things like that, the tails like "wet cardboard" mixed with normal tail smells you'd get from cereals. Generally I let it run a little longer after the heads and cut immediately when I feel clearly perceived tails. I don't know if this would help.

[Deplorable]

Why are they selling it so cheap? Was it not good wine?

Overproduction? I'm really not sure, but Its one of the larger wineries in the area and own a pretty large vineyard in Rattle Snake Hills.
For a cab-sav, I don't think its a bad wine. Cab Sav is not my go-to red for drinking personally. I like cab franc, merlot, malbec, and Syrah mostly. But for the price, I couldn't pass up the quick path to Brandy.

[Bradster68]

Why are they selling it so cheap? Was it not good wine?

Overproduction? I'm really not sure, but Its one of the larger wineries in the area and own a pretty large vineyard in Rattle Snake Hills.
For a cab-sav, I don't think its a bad wine. Cab Sav is not my go-to red for drinking personally. I like cab franc, merlot, malbec, and Syrah mostly. But for the price, I couldn't pass up the quick path to Brandy.

I find "quick brandy " very nice. Most say it's better than the store bought. I don't think you'll be disappointed

[jonnys_spirit]

Nice score for $5/gallon! I missed that part..

Cheers,
jonny

[Deplorable]

Nice score for $5/gallon! I missed that part..

Cheers,
jonny

Yeah, now I just have to squeeze in some time in the next couple weeks to get it ran. SWMBO keeps finding other shit to do, and I have more grains piling up for my wet weather hobby as well as all the planning for my year as the master of the lodge for the coming year.

[Wildcats]

That's a lot of wine. The barrel came with it I assume? Time to fire up that still. I'd be chopping at the bit to start running that. Nice!! Can't wait to hear back about this from you. Cheer's

[Deplorable]

No, that's my barrel. I have two of them I ferment in. They were originally used to ship powdered lactose.

[Deplorable]

The first charge is in the still. It's my weekend on the duty rotation so I'll fire it up when I get off work tomorrow. and at least get the first run stripped, dump the stillage and recharge the boiler for the 2nd run. Run that charge on Sunday after work and then see when I have time to get to the spirit run.
which likely wont be until the 14th of October which is about when I would normally be stripping my first AG mash of the season. So that weekend I hope to get this ran, and put down an AG mash of single malt, if not two barrels full.
I had to pull about half a glass of this just to try out, and its honestly a pretty good wine considering I'm not a fan of this grape variety. I will have to hurry up and get it stripped though to keep my wife from stealing glasses of it.

[NZChris]

If Her Indoors wants to steal anything, I let her have it.

'Partially fermented Riesling is a lovely drink and over a third of my first Riesling was drunk before bottling day. I've never distilled any.

[Deplorable]

I've got the 2nd boiler charge in the still for the stripping run now. The middle of the first run was dang tasty. If I'm lucky, I'll get the spirit run knocked out tomorrow.

[Wildcats]

I've got the 2nd boiler charge in the still for the stripping run now. The middle of the first run was dang tasty. If I'm lucky, I'll get the spirit run knocked out tomorrow.

Hell yeah. Can't wait to hear how it goes. Cheer's

[Deplorable]

I ended up with 8.5 gallons of low wines at 32% and another 2.5 gallons of wine left to add to the spirit run. I got the 30 gallon barrel back to white, now I'm just waiting for the stillage to cool so I can dump it down the drain. Depending on what time I get home from work tomorrow, I'll knock out the spirit run.
This will go in glass on some red wine staves I've got stashed until I can get a FXW Badmo.

[NZChris]

I always leave some of my brandy white. It must be OK because it always disappears before the oaked brandy is mature enough to start drawing off the wood for the drinks cabinet.

For several products, E.G., gin, ouzo, Absinthe, liqueur, I recycle the grape backset and trub into a sugar wash to be distilled with it's feints to make the base spirit. A hint of grape in a base spirit can be better than neutral for many products that some forum members and Youtubers are adamant that you need refluxed neutral for.

[JustinNZ]

Jumping in here: I spent a winter in Hungary recently drinking tasty but - no offence - rough as guts ‘village’ red wine. Loved it nonetheless. But when it was distilled into Pálinka it was absolutely amazing - full-flavoured and great mouth-feel. And white. Very little if any goes into wood over there. Looking forward to hearing how yours tastes after it has settled down.

[Wildcats]

I ended up with 8.5 gallons of low wines at 32% and another 2.5 gallons of wine left to add to the spirit run. I got the 30 gallon barrel back to white, now I'm just waiting for the stillage to cool so I can dump it down the drain. Depending on what time I get home from work tomorrow, I'll knock out the spirit run.
This will go in glass on some red wine staves I've got stashed until I can get a FXW Badmo.

Sounds like you had a busy and productive day. Good luck with the spirit run today. I bet it's going to be some nice Brandy. I love hearing about this. Makes me wish I had a bunch of wine to work with. The winery that my friend owns, is just a few miles down the road. I did get 5gals of wine from him a few months back. (January) I ran it through my still. It's been ageing since.
Be nice to have the larger volume that you have to work with. But he bottles and sells most all his wine. So he only gives me some that isn't going to be sold...
Nice work sir. Thanks for sharing.

[Deplorable]

The spirit run charge was 8.5G at 32% plus 2.5 gallons of left over wine. I'm about 8 liters into the run still pulling off in the mid 70s.
I underestimated the hearts on this, and I think I switched back to small jars way too early in the run, so now Im collecting in quarts again hoping to not run out of jars.

[Wildcats]

Sounds like a good thing. Gotta love a large hearts cut!!